Ronald Weinland: Prepare (Again) To Meet Your Doom
Ron Weinland appears to be cut from the same cloth as the same false prophet I grew up under: Herbert W. Armstrong. I’m laying 99.99% odds that he’s just as false.
Here are the pivotal claims given on the last page of his freely-downloadable book, 2008 — God’s Final Witness:
By the fall of 2008, the United States will have collapsed as a world power, or it will have begun its collapse and no longer exist as an independent nation within six months after that time. There is a marginal, six-month window of time that God has not yet revealed concerning this specific moment of time. This will be revealed some time soon after the distribution of this book begins.
As the spokesman of God’s two end-time witnesses and as His end-time prophet, I have fulfilled my responsibility in placing the contents of this book before you. What you do with it is up to you. Indeed, only a very short time remains before it will be evident that I am who I say or that I am not. In the past 1900 years, have you ever read or heard of a publication from any religious leader who has made such claims, laying out such a precise pattern for the near future with such precise timelines? You have not! This is the evidence (witness, testimony) of the true God of Abraham!
And here is an excerpt from a radio interview Weinland gave on August 12, 2007.
Ronald Weinland: We have about six months to a year before we come to a point where currencies have no value; they’re going to crash. We’re also going to come to a point in time here where there’s going to be a great deal of destruction, especially in the United States. As soon as that’s taken place, there will be the beginning of a war. Europe is going to step in and try to take control of matters. They don’t want the United States especially, to do some of the things they’re doing right now in Iraq and Afghanistan and so forth. … After Europe starts doing what they do, a year later China and Russia combine together in Asia to battle Europe. And that is an escalation of World War III. World War III begins when Europe begins to do what they’re going to do. After that, a year later, sometime Russia will step in, and it’s a great nuclear war. …
Interviewer: So the world isn’t going to end next year, that’s just the beginning of the end phase?
Ronald Weinland: Exactly. It lasts for 3 1/2 years.
Interviewer: … So by 2012 it will all be over.
Ronald Weinland: That’s correct, and there will be a new world here.
…
Interviewer: Listen Ronald, I’m going to call you again towards the end of time and say, “Ronald, you were wrong,” or I’m going to say, “Ronald, you were right.”
Ronald Weinland: Just call me about April next year.
Don’t worry, Ron— I will.
November 14th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
We can´t believe in Ronald Weinland but it´s best to read carefully the book ” 2008 - God’s Final Witness ” and at the same time to compare with the book ” Apocalypse 2012 - A Scientific Investigation into Civilization´s End ” by Lawrence E. Joseph ( year 2007 ) and look the site ” http://www.apocalypse2012.com ” . The Time is running out , folks ! Be Prepared ! It´s Time to change … NOW !
November 14th, 2007 at 1:35 pm
Roberto,
The apocalypse2012.com site was down for maintenance when I checked it last, but I found this capsule review from Publishers Weekly to be rather telling:
I personally think we do face threats to us as a species. Unfortunately, I don’t think there is any point in trying to tie the culmination of these threats to a specific year. In all likelihood, 2012 will be much like 2000 was: rampant dire predictions and nothing much happening.
November 15th, 2007 at 9:45 pm
Is it really that interesting to point out false prophets? It’s like saying “Look everyone, right there! It’s a rock.” Those of us who recognize the rock will merely nod in agreement, whereas those too wrapped up in worshiping the rock will pay no heed… or be goaded into beating you with the rock.
So perhaps I’m really asking: Is it so very interesting to argue with people who’ve proven they consider fantasy to be more convincing than logic?
November 15th, 2007 at 11:08 pm
Ascius,
No, it’s more like “Look everyone, right there! It’s a thief! Avoid him.”
It wouldn’t be so interesting, except people still get taken in by thieves and there is an ongoing need for awareness and education as to their methods.
December 12th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Deuteronomy 18:22
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
December 13th, 2007 at 5:17 pm
Comment deleted due to preaching.
December 14th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
I have recently read Herbert Armstrong’s “Mystery of the Ages” as well as both e-books done by Ronald Weinland. I actually read the Weinland books first. After listening to some of his interviews and reading the books I am at ends with regards to his claim. It would make sense logically that a prophet would forewarn people before catastrophic events i.e. Noah and subsequently most, if not all, would claim that person to be crazy. This Weinland fellow sounds pretty educated and is quite calm in his responses. Perhaps he truly believes that he is a prophet! I am not going to state which way I am leaning simply because time will tell, however the bible has stated to “beware of false prophets”. This doesn’t mean to reject them but rather to listen to them and their claims will be seen by the fruit they produce. I will say that these books do have some great truth about how we have been deceived as Christians and are worth the read.
December 14th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Terry,
I have little doubt that Weinland thinks of himself as one of the Two Witnesses of Revelation. And I understand you’re a Christian, so we’re coming at this from different world views. That said, I find all of the miraculous claims of the Bible hard to swallow. And if they didn’t happen then there is no such thing as a “True Prophet” in any case.
Many, many people have claimed to be one of the Two Witnesses. (Excellent article on this here.) So far none of them has been right. So why should we believe Ron? There is really no reason to. If his predictions come true (and I am highly skeptical they will) then we can believe. Until then, there simply is no point.
And frankly, I am quite happy to actively scoff at his claims. For one thing, although people like him may be well-meaning, they also influence people using their deepest fears and often enrich themselves in the process. People such as Weinland cannot be argued with, because their beliefs are air-tight, usually even when their claims fail to materialize. So public ridicule is the best alternative: not for his sake, but to help others see the folly.
December 14th, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Ironwolf,
Your response is lucid and certainly carries its weight. We all know the bitter end of the followers of supposed Christ’s like David Koresh and Jim Jones. It is certainly important to understand the circumstances of belief. Personally I went down many different paths during my life and have always tried to find the truth. I only became a true Christian this past year and certainly have disputes with the whole organization of Christianity as a whole. Generally speaking, most church-goers are convinced by the teachings of their church without considering the reading of the bible.
Their undoubtedly is a point in which a “leap of faith” is needed when it comes to the bible. Could we not say the same about our government, teachers, science, medicine, parents… I would like to share my opinion of the bible if you would humor me.
Let us suppose that Satan is real and has deceived the whole world as is mentioned in Revelation. How has he managed this deception? The only response I can comfortably say is through people. I do believe, however, that the bible is the word of God and because of this could not be used for deception. The deception comes from those who preach it. What was very interesting about those books (and quite frankly a great deal of Weinland’s material was taken from Armstrong’s book) was they make you think. The bible is not an easy book to read and like you have said can be a hard pill to swallow. It takes much time and patience and certainly hearing points from many sources help us with our judgments.
The overall message of Weinland’s books was to commence following God’s commandments. This is good sound advice whether he is true or not. I agree that many people will get all crazy and do radical things if they believe he is true. Their is already some group in Russia that have commenced living in a cave saying that the end will be in May 2008. I don’t know if they read his book or not but these are pretty strong measures.
I apologize at this being so long of a response so I will conclude by saying that those who believe in the bible know that they cannot alter God’s plan so maybe all we can do is follow his word and hope for the best.
With respect to those on opposing sides of the fence I believe this is progress. It is important to know all sides to have clarity. Unfortunately most don’t! You and I are in a small group but yet on opposite sides of the fence.
I would like your answer on one thing just so I know that I have presumed correctly in your character.
Would you agree that whether you are a skeptic or a true believer there will come a point when you will have to submit to a “blind leap of faith” before choosing your side of the fence?
Cheers my friend,
Terry
December 14th, 2007 at 4:06 pm
Terry,
Before I can answer your question I think we need to be clear what we mean by “faith,” since it is a rather overloaded term. Let us distinguish between “belief” and “faith”, or there is no point in having two words.
Since it’s Winter where I am, I believe the days will soon start to become longer here and eventually it will be Summer again. I also believe that while it is Winter where I am, it is Summer in the Southern hemisphere. I could be wrong on these propositions, but I have excellent evidence for them gained over hundreds of years of astronomy and earth science. This evidence is demonstrable to anyone who cares to study it, and makes clear predictions about what happens as our planet goes through the seasons. Even if I had no scientific knowledge of the seasons, a simple inductive belief can be based on the direct experience that every year of my life has had four seasons.
Is it equally valid to say I have faith in the seasons? To say “yes” eliminates any useful distinction between those words. “Faith” as it is generally construed by the faithful requires a “leap”, while a mundane belief does not. To invoke “faith” as a term for the kind of belief based on arguments and evidence is to obscure what the “faithful” mean when they say they “have faith in God,” including believing in the biblical accounts of miracles. The objects of religious faith is not demonstrable in the sense that the seasons are demonstrable. Religious faith makes no empirically testable predictions, and where it sometimes attempts to (such as claiming the efficacy of prayer) scientific verification has been elusive. Religious faith, simply put, is not rational— or it would only take rationality to become faithful.
So now to answer your question: No, I do not have to take a “blind leap of faith” before choosing “my side of the fence.” I come to my beliefs through evidence and argument, not blind faith. Moreover, my beliefs are provisional, i.e., subject to change given sufficient evidence. In other words, my side of the fence is not permanent. I was raised a Christian, and became an atheist through argument and evidence. I have also considered what sort of evidence I would require to become a Christian again. I can even imagine that situation changing too, given sufficient evidence. My beliefs are provisional.
But “Blind faith” is not subject to evidence at all. A demonstration of this would be to ask a typical devout Christian what sort of evidence it would take for them to become an atheist. I have yet to receive a straight-up answer from such people: people with no room for doubt in their lives never even consider such questions. There is even a major branch of theology based on “presuppositionalism,” which is the open acknowledgement of a strict a priori acceptance of the Bible’s literal truth in every regard. In this view, where evidence or reason would seem to conflict with the Bible, they are tortured into compliance or simply discarded. I prefer to call my epistemic method “postsuppositionalism,” as my beliefs are formed after evidence and argument— not before, and I always welcome remaking my beliefs when better lights shine on reality.
So there’s your answer. Make of my character what you will.
December 14th, 2007 at 5:10 pm
Ironwolf,
As I mentioned you and I are in a small group. You stated an incredible point in your last posting about convincing a Christian to become an atheist and you are correct in saying that it is difficult to get a straight up answer. Perhaps even more difficult is to find a devout Christian or a devout atheist for that matter. Most people did not follow Christ’s word regardless of the miracles he performed.
I have been in your shoes and have walked your path and I have no visions of changing your perspective unless you ask. This is where religion gets frustrating and remember we cannot interchange bible and religion. They are completely separate entities although most claim to be the same. You could not disprove God to me any more than I could prove God to you and this is where the hatred between believers and non-believers come in. Religions only make this hatred worse. I was in this real-life group earlier this year (shortly after becoming a Christian) and mentioned a friend of mine from the Gym who was Mormon. I thought that the house was going to come down after this. I do not support this attitude and clearly the fact that you and I are conversing ensures me that you do not support that attitude either.
If you could PROVE their is not a God I would listen therefore like you I am provisional. For people who desire to know the most truth about God I recommend the bible not religion. More importantly is to read it slowwllyy. This is why I found the books by Armstrong and Weinland interesting because they pointed out scripturally areas that did not hit me before. I also recommend things like BSF (bible study foundation) that are not affiliated with religion and disect the bible quite well.
You sound like a pretty intelligent individual and I completely respect that. I read the information posted in that link and honestly I have seen it already. As I mentioned previously you cannot enter an argument unless you have knowledge of both sides. You and I have been on both sides and I am open to hear any proof or evidence you have to convince me otherwise.
If you are honestly looking for 100% proof of God I can’t give that to you. Can you give me 100% prove that God does not exist, or 100% proof of your explanation of how we came to be? Science proves our existence no more than the bible does.
This leads me to the “leap of faith” that I mentioned earlier. After studying facts, history, science and theology my proof was found in experience. The bible simply put demonstrates an excellent way to live. Other than that their are multitudes of biblical mentions that have been proven. Sadly, the book that is least discussed and has not yet been proven is the book of Revelation. As for me it took an elevated amount of humbling before I became a Christian.
There is nothing wrong with your character ‘Ironwolf’. You are in search of truth and truth is revealed through research and life experience. I can prove that my life experience has lead me to believe in God but I cannot prove God to you anymore than the bible can.
I have no judgment of your character. You’re alright in my book!
God Bless you buddy! (just kidding-becoming Christian did not mean I lost my sense of humor)
December 14th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Terry,
I come to my atheism not through a 100% proof of God’s non-existence, but as a natural response to a lack of sufficient evidence and the flawed arguments of Christian apologists. Essentially, the reasons I would give for not believing in gods are the same reasons you you would give for not believing in Zeus, or unicorns, or UFOs. There is no 100% proof that any of those things do not exist, and yet you almost certainly do not believe in them. Furthermore, it is not upon me to prove that Zeus does not exist, but upon the Zeus-believer to prove that he does.
I just believe one less book of fairy tales than you do. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but that is what the Bible is. Just because some of the places mentioned in the Bible do (or did) exist does not constitute sufficient evidence of the outlandish things it describes actually happening. You want examples? This article is one of the better ones. If you have evidence that refutes it, I’d love to see it.
The Bible has a few good things in it, but not if you try to take all of it literally, as many do. If you think you can, I urge you to try this challenge. I have seen literalist apologists bluster about it no end, but none who have actually completed it. If you’re not a literalist, then it is easy to brush aside a host of contradictions, but then where do you draw the line? And of course, it is you who must draw it.
And then, once you extract the wheat from the chaff, as Thomas Jefferson did with the Jefferson Bible, you are basically left with Humanism, and a much slimmer pamphlet.
Surely, God in his might could show me enough evidence to become a believer. The Bible says he did so for Gideon. The Bible says he did so for Thomas the Doubter. The Bible says he did so for Paul. Therefore, if God exists and if I am an unbeliever at this time, it is because God wills it, for I assure you: if the evidence of God’s existence were undeniable, I could not help but believe.
I’ve written much more about why I find it impossible to be a Christian here, here, and elsewhere on my blog.
December 14th, 2007 at 7:38 pm
Ironwolf,
You need not apologize to me for anything. I will not be insulted. You are merely dictating your points and once again, I respect that. As far as your first portion is concerned about Nazareth. First I would like to point out that it is really insignificant in the Old Testament as it deserves no credence towards the prophecies. The prophecies were clear with the birthplace of Bethlehem for Jesus Christ. They did not need to dive into where he grew up. Due to the fact that it was mentioned in the new Testament I will honor your request. Here are a couple places to read.
http://www.tektonics.org/gk/humphreysk01.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth
In regards to the challenge that you listed I find that to be ridiculous to question. Not the fact that the challenge is based strictly on details that are minor following decades after the event but they do not focus on the main portions of the event. He was crucified and resurrected three days later. Easter is without a doubt a Pagan ritual as is Christmas and New Year’s and they have no reference in the Bible. These are fallacies in our religions and as I mentioned before should undoubtedly be brought to the surface. Easter is not mentioned in the Bible. Passover yes. Christmas is not mentioned in the bible and we know that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25.
He appeared to 12 instead of 11 (Iscariot was dead!). None of these writers were present at the time the women witnessed this and so the way that it is described is a little different but the main concept is the same.
Easter is a Pagan holiday, Christmas is Pagan, Sunday Sabbath is Pagan from Baal. These are portions of fallacies engulfed by religions and have nothing to do with the bible.
Do you believe that the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima? I am quite certain that you will find multitudes of differences in U.S. and Japanese history on the steps leading up to it but they will both be consistent in the fact that it was dropped.
The Sabbath which is always a big discrepancy incidentally commences at Sundown Friday and Ends at Sundown Saturday. This is stated in the beginning of Genesis and Sunday comes from Sun-God (pagan).
This all leads to Revelation’s message that the world has been deceived.
If you want to convince me of something then do so with refuted facts of importance, otherwise you may as well dismiss Hiroshima from ever happening as well.
December 14th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
Terry again,
I did fail to mention a point when I said:
He appeared to 12 instead of 11 (Iscariot was dead!).
Is it possible that he was stated this out of habit. I don’t know about you but 2008 is around the corner and historically in the first part of the New Year I have made the mistake in placing the previous year in letters and check out of habit. Have you never done this?
December 14th, 2007 at 8:01 pm
Admission of mistake!
Easter is mentioned once in the King James Translation Act 12:4
improperly translated (should say Passover).
December 14th, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Terry,
Your first link seems to take the tone, “Yes, the extra-biblical evidence for Nazareth is tenuous at best, and yes, even biblical writers who should have known it well do not speak of it… but so what?” So what?? So, that state of affairs comports well with the idea that Nazareth was not a place you could “be from” (as in “Jesus of Nazareth”) in the first century. That link even admits (emphasis mine):
So, if you call a city of tombs a “settlement,” then I suppose you might think Jesus grew up there, but it seems a pretty dreary place, not to mention a place in which you would become ritually unclean. And in fact Jesus was a Jew from a Jewish family who would care about such things.
Wikipedia, which you also reference, says, “Non-biblical textual references to Nazareth do not occur until around 200 AD.” Isn’t that strange? It then gives references to writers who mention it… all of whom came hundreds of years after Jesus. Why would this be? Perhaps you’d like to claim that Wikipedia is part of a secular conspiracy?
Now, I hope you’ll at least admit that if there were truly abundant evidence of Nazareth being a real city in the time of Jesus, Christians would have no trouble showing this, and would crow about it no end. Their (and your) attitude would be anything but a sneering, “So what?” But because such references and evidence are tenuous at best, Christians rather diminish its significance. Confirmation bias, anyone?
Next the challenge. You give pretty much the same response: you say it’s based on minor details written about decades after the alleged event, and so you attempt to minimize its importance. But here again, if your perfect God had inspired these writers to write accounts that truly agreed and strengthened each other— even in the details— would not that be much stronger evidence of divine inspiration? How you would boast! But because these writers in fact tear each other down on pretty much everything except “Jesus rose,” you claim that is all that is important. And the best evidence usually brought forth for the resurrection: no dead body! (And tons of “empty tombs”.) Hm… if I have no money, can I admit that as evidence that I once was rich?
So you have taken the “non-literliast” approach to the challenge. But if I cannot know which of the details of the Bible are literally true and which are not, 1) How do I know it is divine? 2) How do I know it is reliable? 3) How do I even know what is important and what is meaningless detail? Clearly, different “Christian” sects draw conflicting theological, eschatalogical, and soteriological lines from the same text, and my eternal salvation is at stake! Shall I believe that you, somehow, have stumbled upon the one true path while those other Christians, while perhaps well-meaning, are gravely mistaken and perhaps bound for Hell? (Or the “Lake of Fire,” if you prefer a WCG-ism.) The Bible says “God is not the author of confusion.” But if he is in control of things, then he has certainly been its financeer.
I will also note that you’re entirely missing the point about it being the “Easter Challenge.” I’m with you that Easter is an annexed pagan holiday. Remember, I grew up in the Worldwide Church of God where we didn’t observe Christmas, Easter, or even birthdays. I also kept the weekly Sabbath from sunset to sunset, and the other holy days so I know all about that. But again that’s missing the point, which is: “And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.” (1 Cor 15:14
). With the only “evidence” for the resurrection being documents written 70 or more years after Jesus supposedly lived, that are supposed to be divinely inspired, but which weren’t written by eyewitnesses and which don’t even comport on the details (and in fact diverge quite strikingly in many places) I find that evidence quite thin. Your “leap of faith” may be able to jump that gaping chasm, but as I have said, I don’t take such leaps. Lacking proper evidence, it is much simpler to assume that the Bible is exactly what it looks like: an anthology of purely human folklore edited by priests with an agenda. And Revelation too is exacly what it appears to be: a work of political allegory— part of the pulp, operatic “science fiction” genre of its day.
Since you’re into Revelation, you might like to read this site, from which the following two quotes are taken:
It is one thing to say that different countries will have different slants on their history of an event— it is another thing to say that God couldn’t have been clearer and more convincing. Or even (as I pretty much expect you to say next) that he didn’t want to be clear and convincing. Historians base their theories on a “preponderance of the evidence.” Clearly, there is a preponderance of evidence about what happened in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I have been to both cities myself and seen it. But to imply that same kind of preponderance of evidence is available for the life, death, and resurrection of the god-man Jesus simply snaps credulity in two. Are you honestly trying to convince me they rise to the same level? For shame.
So… you say that “Jesus of Nazareth” being from a first century graveyard, and the Holy, God-Inspired Bible being riddled with contradictions are not “facts of importance” to consider when deciding upon your faith? And I must come up with something more imporant to convince you to doubt?
Well, again I have to ask you to tell me… what could possibly convince you?
December 15th, 2007 at 12:34 am
Ironwolf,
As I have mentioned before I believe that life experience has much to do with our positions of the world. One thing that is undeniably true is that we (humans) at some point in time question why we are here? Where did we come from? What’s the entire purpose?
I also mentioned that I have selected many paths for many years and have only recently come to my truth. Like you my beliefs are provisional and I strive in every way to know the truth.
I had no idea that you were raised in the WCG by the way. I only stumbled upon this blog so forgive me for being ignorant of your history. I find it kind of amusing in a way because I was going to email you directly to ask you that very question. I was raised by a family that allowed us to choose. I was baptized Roman Catholic and decided from grade 5 to 6 that I wanted to switch from public to Catholic school. I desired to be confirmed and held a strong interest in religion (why I cannot answer). Needless to say that after a couple of years I saw so much corruption and logical deducing of malpractice that I strayed from religion completely.
I think that I always held a belief in God in my own way but really started to look elsewhere.
I turned 38 this year so let’s say that for 27 years I have not been a believer. Most people will say that they were saved by someone leading them to the truth. This was not what happened for me. Quite simply I was humbled to the level where I succumbed to not be proud and accept the greater creator. I do not know if this has ever happened to you but I relate to your feelings. Even at times now I can truly relate but somehow I maintain or better stated get back on my path.
When proof cannot be fully had we have to rely on experience. We give things a try and if it works we don’t try to fix it. This is ultimately the state that you and I are in.
You mention that you are an atheist as a natural response to a lack of evidence, but yet you have a lack of evidence to disprove God so what is your natural response to that. There have been others in similar circumstances that have tried to disprove God and only proved it to themselves (Josh Mcdowell - More than a Carpenter).
This whole conversation was sparked because of my mention of the information in those books that I saw as valid. I feel that regardless of how many times someone cries wolf you should tend to their cry. The time that you don’t may just be the time when it is real. If he turns out to be false so be it. It doesn’t mean that their wasn’t valid information in that book. Now let’s get back to the bible for a second and allow me to express my personal reasons of belief and as you said before “Make of my character what you will”. Being a Christian is not easy and I am well aware of how it has ostracized me from so many people I care about.
Firstly most will see the miracles that Jesus performed and be convinced of his deity. My convincing was the change in the apostles following the resurrection. They were afraid when he was crucified but yet something happened that gave them the strength to show their faces yet again in the public knowing that they would most certainly suffer a cruel death.
The other part of my convincing was after I read the book of Job. I found myself comparing the lives of Job and I. I certainly am not the character trait that God would find near perfect by any stretch of the imagination but I saw a comparison of the kind of crap that he had to endure similar to myself. I found myself asking the question why would someone dedicate most of their lives if not all of their lives to write these stories without compensation and most likely ridicule. Then the most amazing question in my mind was raised looking at the book of Job. I never found anything written by Shakespeare to be as eloquent as the way that Job was written which furthered by belief in divine intervention. This is seen in many places in the bible i.e. Psalm, however Job stuck in my mind more than any of the other books.
The bible tells us to beware of false prophets and recognize them by their fruit so let’s see how this unfolds. The bible also says not to test God so once again their is that “leap of faith” that I come back to.
You have given me as much proof of your convictions as I have given you and the information from the bible has been authenticated for so much longer than the information you have rejecting it, but here is the real kicker: “My ambition is not to convince you of my beliefs”. You are trying to convince me of yours and I leave the table open to you to continue to do so. I will listen. You have my word as an honorable man not as a Christian.
If we go back to the beginning it is clearly evident that I was merely expressing a personal opinion about the books that were written.
I really enjoy talking with you and the intellectual challenge. It would be great if we had the opportunity sometime to discuss this over a few pints and perhaps a game of pool!
Cheers my friend,
Terry
December 15th, 2007 at 3:02 am
Terry,
Yes, we do quest for a purpose. I realized some time ago that I make my own purpose in life, and that to give someone else the power to dictate my life’s purpose is an abdication of personal responsibility and actually quite dangerous.
You say you didn’t know that I grew up in the WCG. But please note that in the first paragraph of the very posting we are (ostensibly) commenting on, I say that I grew up under Herbert W. Armstrong. You say you have read Mystery of the Ages but you have no clue that he was the founder, “Pastor General”, and “apostle” of the WCG?
FYI, since 1997 I have also run the “Ex-WCG Non-Believer” site here. It is a forum for other ex-WCG non-believers to tell their stories.
You say “you have a lack of evidence to disprove God”, which shows you have no understanding of the Burden of Proof argument I made earlier. Please see Argument from ignorance.
I am familiar with Josh McDowell— I have read Evidence that Demands a Verdict and found it severely wanting. I have also read “heavier” works such as Norman Geisler’s Christian Apologetics with similar results. In my experience, when you scratch an apologist you usually uncover a fideist: “evidence” and “argument” are by them always a prop made to serve their foregone conclusions. If that had been true for me I never would have become an atheist after being a devout Christian, nor could I conceive of evidence that would cause me to become Christian again (and if you’ve read my links, you’ve seen where I discuss that.) You, on the other hand, while claiming that you also have provisional beliefs, have steadfastly avoided answering my question: “What evidence would it take you to doubt your current beliefs?” The unwillingness to answer this question is the mark of a dogmatic belief system.
You say, “Firstly most will see the miracles that Jesus performed and be convinced of his deity.” Why should you not be convinced of the other deity stories of other religions, then? They include many tales of miracles. Are they works of fiction? How do you know the difference?
I hear you were impressed by Job. But if you think the story of Job literally true then I propose that it provides excellent grounds upon which to question the moral character of the God in whom you say you believe. Besides, eloquence is not truth: many Muslims claim that the Koran, allegedly dictated to Muhammad by Allah himself (and therefore, they claim, much more directly inspired than the Bible) is the most eloquent document ever written, far moreso that humans can manage. (At least, in its original Arabic.) Why do you not believe them?
You say that the Bible says not to test God, yet it includes prominent examples of people who did and were rewarded (as I previously mentioned, Gideon and Thomas come to mind.) Again, the Bible is not a coherent moral guide, and you can pretty much prove anything you want depending on how you read it: it talks out of both sides of its mouth.
I will echo your sentiment: I am not here to convince you of my beliefs. But others will read our exchange. They will visit our links. And I am convinced that some will find a fruitful seed of doubt planted by our conversation and the other materials I have pointed to, just as similar Internet debates did for me over ten years ago.
You are welcome to state your personal opinions here, as long as you don’t start delivering a sermon (as you’ve seen, I delete such posts with prejudice.) But do expect an answer from me even if you are “merely” expressing a personal opinion— for too long blind faith and dogmatism have gone politely unanswered in our world, and to the detriment of all. There are people working to change that, and I’m one of them.
Pints and pool— sounds like fun!
Regards,
Robert
December 15th, 2007 at 11:33 am
Ironwolf,
Man am I ever bummed! I wrote a response that was quite informed went to submit and got “Wrong security code error”. When I hit the back button I lost everything I wrote so now I need to re-iterate.
First I mentioned that I did not interpret the comment “appears to be cut from the same cloth as the same false prophet I grew up under: ” to mean your were involved with WCG but rather a demonstration of a time period that you grew up in.
Secondly I do not like to be called a liar! “You say you have read Mystery of the Ages but you have no clue that he was the founder, “Pastor General”, and “apostle” of the WCG?” Why you would say this is beyond me as it has no mentioning within our conversation. I have read the book and have close to 14 pages of personal notes I took on that book. You are trying to disprove my beliefs that is fine. Attacking my honor in what I say is truly unacceptable. If my credibility in reading this book is in question feel free to quiz me. Anyone who reads my personal notes that I took would surely be aware that I read the book.
My first excerpt simply stated that I read these books and “I will say that these books do have some great truth about how we have been deceived as Christians and are worth the read.”
Your “Argument from Ignorance” theory has no place withing our conversation because I have clearly mentioned more that once that a point comes where a “leap of faith” is needed.
Here is another quote from your previous response “You, on the other hand, while claiming that you also have provisional beliefs, have steadfastly avoided answering my question: “What evidence would it take you to doubt your current beliefs?” The unwillingness to answer this question is the mark of a dogmatic belief system.”
Tell me how it all came to be (universe, earth, the very beginning) and what was before that? No avoidance! The previous time you asked I was simply involved in responding to matters of more importance.
Earlier in the conversation you noted that quiz about the differing portrayals of the resurrection. I cross reference that with Hiroshima. If you hear a story from 4 views and you were not there to witness the event then the next logical step is to select the points that are the same and assume that these are the facts.
Revelation deals with events yet to unfold and have therefore not proven themselves yet and this is where I keep coming back to the “leap of faith”. If the weather channel tells me that we will get some severe weather later today I will bring appropriate clothes as preparation for this weather. If the weather happens I could say that this is proof of the weather channels prediction and some would still say that it was a lucky guess.
December 15th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
Robert,
I just finished reading your journey:
http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/philosophy/myjourney.html
I feel for you brother in more ways than you can imagine. I relate your experience with WCG to my experience with Catholocism and following this reading I feel even stronger now about us being on opposite sides of the fence. I say this mainly because it appears that you had many years invested while I had few and then moved from my religion.
I do believe that religion has caused more problems than anything else and I am happy that you have found a peace in your life and happiness. This is something I have not found. I struggle, day by day, with my feelings about God and why he is not answering my prayers. When will this string of bad luck that has consumed me over the past (coming up on) 5 years end? Where is the light at the end of this dark tunnel? I would like to share a personal story for you.
In 1999 I started following the works of Neale Donald Walsch (Conversations with God) trilogy. I don’t know if you have ever read these books or not. For the first time in my life I actually believed I could sense God’s presence while I was reading them and was filled with hope and ambition. I was living in Ottawa, ON, Canada at that time and dreamed of moving to Texas. I was a software designer/support engineer for Nortel and thought that I would have the opportunity to get sponsorship to Richardson, Texas. I had the contacts there and had the interest.
My dream was to eventually get into Product Management as I wanted to be directly involved with clients and the business end of it all. Nortel limited their sponsorships to the States and it was unlikely that my wish would be granted. I did not lose hope and honestly had no doubt that I was getting the opportunity to go to Texas. This was attributed to the CWG trilogy. Out of the blue I get contacted by a company in Austin, Texas for a software Product Manager position. I had never heard of this company prior and didn’t have a clue as to what they did but they needed a software Product Manager and I fit the bill. My dream became reality. Life was great! I was having opportunities to travel the world, challenged with this role and was sure I reached my calling. I loved that job and loved life.
I fell in love with a beautiful woman who had a wonderful young boy, got married and finally had my own family. I couldn’t ask for more. The marriage did not last long and as much as I tried to save it I was helpless. Our company went through a buy out and I made the worst career move of my life. All I could think about was my marriage and trying to hang on to it even though it was destined for failure. I gave up on a great career, the marriage ended and I had nothing left. I have not had the fortune of coming close to the career that I loved so much in the past 5 years and have struggled with my own value to this world. My optimism that once shone brightly from me has dimmed to a dull flicker. No relationships of value have surfaced. I found myself envious of those who had fortune in relationship even if they didn’t have fortune monetarily.
It was easy for me to turn my back on all that I believed in at that point and I swore that if God truly existed I would prepare myself to go ten rounds.
Today my luck has not improved. I have been out of work and still struggle constantly with self worth. My beliefs in God’s promise through being a Christian is what keeps me going right now. I read what you wrote and believe you are fortunate. You have a wife, 2 boys, steady work and apparently a good life. More importantly you are happy in your position of belief. Why would you think that I would wish to take that from you or attempt to change your perspective?
When proof cannot be given we rely on personal experience to determine our beliefs. If being an Atheist is working for you I have no objection to that. I am glad that you have found peace and happiness in your life.
I am still trying to find mine and more importantly trying to find reasons and will to breathe everyday.
I wouldn’t judge you because of what you believe and would look forward to our “pints and pool” get together. We have our differences of opinion and that’s what makes us human. The ability to look past those differences and be able to play a game of pool together would make us friends!
Cheers Robert,
Terry
December 15th, 2007 at 1:34 pm
I agree with you Terry. The End is here. All the signs are here and the 7th seal is close to opening. Ron and Laura are the end time witnesses. If you believe the bible then you will see this. If you dont believe the bible than you will not see this. You will believe in about 4-5 months and man will see how ignorant they have been. This is all happening because man is NOT GOD FEARING! Happy Sabbath everyone..God Bless
December 15th, 2007 at 2:53 pm
Jay,
As I mentioned earlier I have not stated where my position is exactly because in pure honesty I, as well, possess the natural tendency of desiring proof. This is why I have said that as things unfold clarity will be established on whether Ron is true or false.
I simply think that it doesn’t hurt to read and understand it however.
Robert’s points are also quite valid and I do not boast to be educated in all areas and it urges me to read more. To understand how others are feeling and thinking. My opinions are solely based on knowledge and experience and I will admit that I do not possess all the knowledge of the various forms of religion. I will not rule out the possibility that this is why I keep coming back to the “leap of faith” statement.
I do not consider myself to be better than anyone else but rather someone who is trying to determine truth.
I remember once reading a quote that really made sense to me. It said that wisdom is the result of knowledge applied through experience and that is where you will find your truth.
Knowledge of the bible is to a large extent passed down through our religions and until you apply that knowledge you will not obtain the wisdom. For me, Catholocism didn’t work and neither did Atheism and some of the new age practices I tried. They may have worked for a period but they didn’t last. For Robert WCG didn’t work and apparently Atheism is working. I haven’t been able to figure out the rhyme or reason behind any of it but it entices me to keep searching.
I know that I have felt the pressure. I have lost friends, I have weakened family ties and most of the time am alone in my thoughts.
I have the utmost respect for Robert because he is clear in his admonitions and not afraid to say them. Our positions are different, yes, but we are still conversing. I know where I am today and do not wish to state where I will be tomorrow. The only thing I know is that awareness of the possibilities of tomorrow are always of interest to me.
December 15th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
I agree yet again. Every man is free to his own belief whether it be wrong or not. I have done extensive research on the bible and have read both books by Ronald Weinland and I believe all this is going to happen. Although i know this i am still not in his Church of God - PKG because i am not observing the Saturday Sabbath due to my job. So if all this is true than i am in the same boat as you Robert, unfortunately. But I am trying to change to better myself as an individual and hopefully one day i will be in Gods kingdom. Both of my friends are in Ron’s church and there is nothing false about it. Right now i am struggling with sin. Hopefully i will overcome it. - JAY
oh and can i get in on the pints of beer and pool??
December 15th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
Hey everyone. My name is Chris Feniello im 25 from new york I actually have read both books of Ron’s and am familar with the teachings of Herbert W armstrong. I found Ron’s Books to be very powerfull. They really pinpointed the deception in all of the world’s religions. I agree with Mary that Deuteronomy 18:22
should be always considered. Many false prophets will arise in this endtime and the proof of the validty of there statements will surely be proven by time through our great God. I do not think Ron is misinformed nor do i think he is a false prophet. I agree with iron wolf about the y2k crisis. Biblically and rationally it was unsound. We must remember that yes this is the endtime, God knows the time, and God does nothing without revealing it to his prophets first. What comes to mind is the Boy who cried wolf. Many false prophets have hit the scene crying the end of the world is near. Ron is stating that this is an end of an age with a beautiful outcome of mankind having a chance to become God beings in the God family. God forbid we don’t listen to one who is, and who is sent by the Almighty God of Abraham. Whether you believe or not, what if he is exactly who he says he is and God warns you early and you dont heed the warning.
Just something to think about.
Christopher John
December 16th, 2007 at 8:27 am
Jay,
In response to the “pints and pool” mention my answer would be — absolutely!
Of course it was meant metaphorically, however, if anyone were ever in this vicinity I would be more than happy to entertain the idea.
Cheers,
Terry
December 16th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Wow
I am so glad you guys chose the internet over TV, as this is the whole point of existence: it is the debate of philosophers, poets, shaman and farmers over millenia. It is so refreshing to see (as an educator), that lifelong learning does indeed exist in this vacuous entertainment-driven culture. So I thank you for the very forum in which I found this very compelling and essential dialectic.
…..So of course I could not resist jumping in. (I would SO be in for those fabled pints.)
My 2 cents worth? (Thanks so much for asking, don’t mind if I do….)
I too have been on the undulating journey of belief and disbelief, saved and unsaved. As an psudo-intellectual it always feels safer to not commit as you cannot be accused of faulty argumentation and lapses in strict rules of logic. Also there is (in me) a tendency to intellectualize matters of faith, which as you can see from the very absurdity of the clause itself, is rife with inherent contradiction. And so we seek and search and look for confirmation, fallacy, discernment etc. Ok well I do and it seems I am in good company in that regard.
Recently this journey has taken me to quite scary places. It began with the 9/11 conspiracy films with the insidious evidence that history is so written by the ones with the printing press.
This led me to peel back more and more layers, like the proverbial Shrekian Onion, of fallacies around me. Things like Endgame, Zeitgiest (avail on YouTube) , the Bilderburgers, the Global Elite, Zionist agendas, eerie political and geneological “co-incidences” at the highest levels of power….(bear with me, I am not jetting off into la la land….). Been reading about MK Ultra, Monarch Mind Control experiments, systematic poisioning of the population to control numbers, the Denver Airport (!!), FEMA camps, Chemtrails, North American Union and the upcoming “Amero” etc etc etc. (Made me want to go back to TV, and I must confess if even 1/8th of this stuff is reality-based, we are in way more trouble than an unresolved intellectual debate.)
THEN I dig further and as more layers are peeled back I stumble upon the DISinformation …. in true conspiracy theory style, people like Alex Jones and his Endgame are nothing but an attempt to rile the public up so that the powers that be have an excuse to finally implement Martial Law and bring about the One World Government, WW111 etc.
Sigh, exhausting, it was an emotional and intellectual purgatory and I am still trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. I dont want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. If there is a truth out there, I want to discover it, know it, or at least peel away as many layers as I can to get to the best approximation I can of what is real and what is sci-fi paranoia.
Which led me to these pages, as every source I read about I research and see what the detractors have to say so I get both sides of the story, as somewhere between usually lies the closest thing to the truth. Thus I googled the name ronald weinland before I wasted too much time reading something that was universally regarded as bunk….which led me to this very place and my current state of appealling to you people who seem to look beyond the obvious.
Which leads me to my current state. I am researching the possibility of these entime prophesies, and I really need to know what your opinion on all of the above is?? Are these conspiracy theorists all out to lunch with Xenu, or is there some basis for mistrust and alarm? I assume the athiestic position would be there is no ultimate self-destruction of mankind, we just keep going on and on. I deal in patterns and themes, and as such I cannot accept, (tho I would love to, it’d be so much more…relaxing!…) that we as a human race just go on and on and everything is fine. I am too cynical by nature to believe that mankind is not inherently evil, as for me the external evidence I perceive confirms this daily.
In sum, From all my recent research, I am drawing some very heavy lines from some very compelling dots, and the picture that is emerging is nothing less than TERRIFYING.
So I appeal to you for your esteemed opinions: both sides of course are welcome, as my mind is struggling to reconcile these ostensibly contradictory world views. I know what I want to be true, but I am like a virgin that can’t go back: once you have seen the matrix exposed, its hard to go back to sleep.
Thanks for indulging….I thought to myself how can u guys write so much but now i see that once you get going, its the stopping that becomes the hard part!!
Pax
Sue
December 17th, 2007 at 12:08 am
Hi Sue,
Yes the picture emerging is terrifying and I wish that I could tell you with any level of certainty what the appropriate form of action should be.
You will definitely be given a broad spectrum of opinions of what other’s would do from the extreme to the minimal, however, the extremists will consider their actions simply - appropriate. Knowing this I question - Who am I to judge or say their actions are less intelligent than my own.
We can only represent our personal opinions on the matter (whether my opinion is esteemed or not is uncertain).
Awareness is the key that I have taken from the books, continued research and discussions like this. Arriving at definitive conclusions is difficult but even more so if you haven’t heard differing opinions.
Along with awareness I have taken a good look at myself and evaluated who I am in respect to all of this. I try to keep myself in check with my feelings, thoughts and actions. I have asked for forgiveness and pray that I can have the Strength to understand and the courage to overcome.
I personally think it is important to forgive any in your life that you are holding anger or resentment towards. Praying for these people (whether psychological or not) is a good method towards this accomplishment.
If you believe what the bible says and have read Revelation you will most likely understand that the question is when and not if. Keeping this in mind I then question if my faith will be strong enough to stand the tests of deception and the sacrifices that I may have to endure. The fact that I question this is a strong indication that I have some distance to go yet.
On the flip side of the coin and probably most important of all is what will my reaction be if these prophecies to do not unfold and Ron admits to be a False Prophet! Here is the big challenge! This said I make certain that the changes I strive for in myself are not as a response simply to fear of the end but rather because I know that they ultimately make me a better person than I was before. This is key to me! (I’m a poet and didn’t know it)
It looks like the pints and pool group has gotten larger!
Cheers,
Terry
December 17th, 2007 at 2:08 am
Terry,
Sorry you had trouble with the captcha code. Unfortunately without it my blog is overrun with spam. When I am writing comments of substance to an online forum, I never simply use the text entry field in my browser— I’ve lost too much precious work that way. I always use a separate text editor and then paste my work into the browser, and I recommend that others do the same.
I was not calling you a liar, and I’m sorry it came off that way. Rather, I was expressing surprise that you have obviously steeped yourself in the Armstrongist milleu and yet didn’t have “eyes to see” what I meant was I was literally “under” Armstrong himself— in his church. To fill things out a litle more: My mother came into WCG when I was 5. I heard many years of prophetic preaching, and believed it. I saw the church attacked by the State of California when they took over the church’s finances for more than a year, and as a child was involved in the sit-ins that took place at the church headquarters. (A formative experience in my ongoing strong support for both freedom of religion and church/state separation.) I became a baptized member when I was in my late teens. I saw the death of Armstrong and the changes under his successor, Joe Tkach Sr., and then his untimely death and more changes under his son, Joe Jr. I remained a member until I became an atheist circa 1995. My wife still attends services in a WCG congregation where we live in Glendora, California where (coincidentally) the church decided to relocate their headquarters after selling the Ambassador College campus in Pasadena.
In other words, what I was implying at the start of my posting on Weinland is that I have seen this all before. New prophet, new timeline, same hubris.
The Argument from Ignorance does have a place in our conversation because you have repeatedly brought up my “lack of disproof” for your God. Even if I had a 100% disproof of something, anyone could still believe in it using a “leap of faith.” In fact, some commonly-held concepts of God are logically impossible and therefore 100% disprovable, and yet people still hold to them— in other words even true disproof does not rise to the standard needed to plant doubt in these believers. The Argument from Ignorance comes into play when a believer attempts to put the burden of proof (however high) on the non-believer, essentially saying, “Ye haven’t disproved leprechauns to me, boy-o, so therefore they exist! And look at how every now and then your socks in the laundry come up one short of a pair… more proof! I’m warning ye, if you don’t appease the Little Folk every day then, faith and begorrah! you’re going to wake up one day with a leprechaun’s shillelagh up your arse, while me and my kin’ll be laughin’ at’ya from the end of the rainbow!”
As silly as that sounds, that is exactly how a Christian believer sounds to an atheist (or a believer from any other faith, for that matter) when they warn of approaching prophetic doom and/or eternal damnation, but have no substantial (i.e., a preponderance of independently testable, non-conflicting) evidence. You want to believe on your “leap of faith”? Fine, but do it quietly and don’t start telling others how to live their lives. Oh, God tells you that you’re a prophet now… and you can’t hold your tongue because it’s your job to (with no proof) tell the world it’s coming to an end? OK, then expect the ridicule you so richly deserve, particularly after you follow in the footsteps of the thousands of false prophets who are your rightful predecessors.
You ask, “Tell me how it all came to be (universe, earth, the very beginning) and what was before that?” I presume that you are saying that an answer to this is what you would need to become an atheist. All I can say is that, although those are valid scientific questions, we don’t currently know the answers to them. And perhaps we may never— but a “God did it” answer is actually worse, because it is a smokescreen: it covers up the ultimate question: “Why is there something instead of nothing?” with an answer based on no evidence, that provides no useful information or testable predictions, that is full of internal contradictions, and that only replaces a question with another one: “Who created God?”
So if that is your standard of evidence then you will have a long time to wait. But if you find yourself doubting Ron Weinland’s world view late next year, and really need to believe in god but wonder whether anyone has the right view of God, perhaps you’d like to consider deism?
You say, “If you hear a story from 4 views and you were not there to witness the event then the next logical step is to select the points that are the same and assume that these are the facts.” I thought this statement worth an in-depth response, as it comes up often and raises a lot of issues, so it grew into a new front-page posting.
Finally, you claim to know what Revelation deals with. But how do you know the author didn’t think the allegorical events he was writing about would not occur within his generation or soon thereafter? Furthermore, you seem to want give equal weight to the predictions of Revelation and the predictions of the Weather Channel. These kinds of comparisons still drop my jaw: are you so ignorant of meteorology that you really want to call science a form of prophecy or prophecy a form of science? “For tomorrow our team of eschatologists are predicting a 30% chance of swarms of stinging locusts appearing in the Chicago region. And we’re also following that hailstorm mingled with fire and blood moving up the Eastern Seaboard— FEMA is responding and we’ll have an on site report for you shortly along with handy tips for removing blood stains. For the 7-day view, our computer models predict a 10% chance of the return of the King of Kings. Thanks for watching the Apocalypse Channel! And now a word from our sponsor…”
December 17th, 2007 at 3:02 am
Terry,
Thank you for sharing your heartfelt struggle. And believe me, if your faith is a comfort to you I would not wish to take it from you. On the other hand, I feel no comfort when I hear people rant about how the end of the world is nigh; on the contrary, I see a long trail of broken lives and families left by preachers who focus on The End. When I see people teetering on the brink of following these vipers, I can’t help but wonder whether exposing them to another view of life might not help them see new possibilities.
All I can say is, I tell it like I see it. If you are disturbed by what you read here, then I urge you to go elsewhere. And while I can’t offer you salvation either, I can offer you some worldly wisdom:
1. Forget prayer. If you are talented, your luck will change if you don’t give up and you keep looking for new projects.
2. If you are not talented, or your talents are not in demand, then get some new training right away— our society has many resources that will help you.
3. Get a job before you try to get a new relationship. They are on different levels of the hierarchy of needs, and it’s too much to try to get both at the same time.
4. If you want to be attractive to an attractive potential mate, remember that you don’t control anyone else— only yourself. Furthermore: depression, desperation, and self-deprecation are palpable, and healthy people run from them. Therefore, be productive, joyful, and self-sufficient. Pursue your interests and have fun with them. Don’t worry about your next relationship— your first duty is to love yourself. If you then love others as yourself you will be attractive.
5. Heaven and Hell are both here and now.
6. No-one can save you, but you.
December 17th, 2007 at 5:27 am
Sue,
Hi! And welcome.
So you decided to take the Red Pill, eh?
If you’ve read what I’ve written here, and poked around my blog archives, then you know what I think of religion, and our present focus, Ron Weinland; so I don’t think I need to repeat that here.
But I would like to make a few comments on “peeling back the onion.”
While I think it is a good idea to get “both sides of the story,” I think it unlikely that the truth usually lies “between.” In fact, claiming that it does is a common tactic used by extremists to demand attention for utterly discredited ideas. A great example is the recent brouhaha over Intelligent Design, where IDers campaigned for science classes to “teach the controversy” when there really is no controversy among biologists as to whether the Theory of Evolution is valid.
Rather than trying to construct an “in-between” truth from opposing accounts, it would be better to assign probabilities to each account based on the best evidence and argumentation you can find, and remain open to new evidence.
You say, “I assume the atheistic position would be there is no ultimate self-destruction of mankind, we just keep going on and on.” This is not part of the atheistic position: the atheistic position is simply either, “gods do not exist,” or “there is insufficient evidence to believe that gods exist,” depending on what kind of “god” is being claimed to exist. There are atheists who are optimists, pessimists, Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, and Greens. There are atheists who are Humanists, atheists who are Objectivists and atheists who are nihilists. There are atheists who self-identify as “Brights” and other atheists who loathe the term. There are “out” atheists and closeted atheist hypocrites.
In short, don’t presume to lump all atheists together in anything but disbelief in gods.
As for myself, I am an atheist and a lot of other things besides. I’m an optimist, but not so optimistic as to think that it’s impossible for us to wipe ourselves out through pure stupidity. We need to cultivate a culture of wisdom now more than ever. We must pop our bubbles of delusion and live together here and now, or face inevitable, tragic consequences of our own making.
I also don’t think that humans are inherently evil or good. Our genetics, families and societies shape us in many ways, and usually we turn out OK. But there’s always room for improvement.
Now, on conspiracy theories. Boy, aren’t there a lot of them? Sort of like religions, eh? In fact, there’s so many of them, and many of them conflict. So really, they can’t all be true. So at least some of them are false. Now, unlike religions which are supposedly founded by “one true gods” and therefore there can only be “one true religion,” conspiracies are plotted and executed by humans. So there can’t be any “one true conspiracy.” There could be a lot. In fact, “conspiracy in the small” obviously happens all the time. People talk about each other behind each others’ backs. They plan contingencies. People unexpectedly get fired. People unexpectedly elope. People unexpectedly get surprise birthday parties. People unexpectedly get divorced. Unexpected, that is, to everyone but the conspirators…
So conspiracy itself is just part of the human condition. Perfect transparency is simply not viable. And not every conspiracy is even harmful (you may have enjoyed that surprise birthday party.)
Now, “conspiracy in the large” is a different matter. A large conspiracy requires the complicity of many, many people over very long periods of time. It literally requires an entire cohort of conspirators to perfectly prevent any intentional or unintentional leaks, and maintain an almost superhuman unanimity for their entire lives, and ultimately die with the secret. This actually doesn’t sound very reasonable. People change. Times change. Human needs change. And ultimately, something surfaces or someone blows the lid off the story. Happens all the time. In fact, it usually doesn’t take very long.
While a small conspiracy might have a major impact on the course of certain events and remain a secret, ultimately small conspiracies are limited in scope.
On the other end of the spectrum, the larger and more influential a conspiracy becomes, the more fragile and vulnerable to exposure it becomes as well.
The result, I believe, is a world in which conspiracies are indeed going on all the time, but most of the successful ones are small and short-lived. The big, long-lived ones are either real and not very successful (either in terms of their goals or the coverup) or unreal: the result of paranoia borne of pareidolia.
Robert Greene, a favorite author of mine, wrote an interesting article on his web site that touches on these issues. (The web site was down when I visited it, so here is the text of the article from the Google cache.)
December 17th, 2007 at 6:16 am
Robert,
You would think that my previous experience and schooling in software design would have been sufficient to remember the cardinal rule about saving your work often. Needless to say, following that incident I commenced the text entry into a word doc.
Unfortunately, whether it is science or theology we (as humans) have a natural tendency to disregard forewarnings of global issues. Science has been warning the issue of Global Warming for a long time now and most (including myself) have given it little attention. I read recently in the news that the polar ice cap has melted to the point that this year was the first recorded in which shipping vessels can navigate through the Arctic Ocean freely. Some other point was noted that Antarctica is melting at a more rapid rate.
Science has told us repeatedly about the affects that will come as a result of this and we can quite possibly attribute the climactic changes in the world as a result.
Of course I am not ignorant of the science behind meteorology and that comparison I gave was childish (thanks for pointing that out) but how do you wish to compare Science and God together. I watched the video that you linked regarding prayer and this to me is no different. I do not understand how one can honestly ever get Science to prove or disprove God or God to prove or disprove science.
I am glad that you mentioned the fact that Science has yet to prove the beginning of it all followed by the question “who created God?” I certainly don’t have the proof either and certainly never claimed to have it.
The argument behind prayer can also be given with respect to the writings in the New Testament. It was recorded that Jesus prayed an entire night before choosing the 12 apostles. This begs the question, “How diligent are we in our prayers?”
With potential destruction facing mankind either through Science or Theology I ask myself the question, “Do I live inside the box or outside the box?”
“Do I listen to man or God?” I consistently agree with you regarding religion and I certainly keep coming back to that. I think that we are much better off reading the bible ourselves and drawing validity through that than freely accepting what our religions are telling us (whether the book is a fairy tale or not).
As far as “telling people how to live” is concerned my opinion is that you are in control of your selection of how to live. Providing information to the general public and making it available does not tell someone how to live it simply gives an opinion. Your Blog contrasting that view is also similar and I honestly appreciate and respect the differing opinions. You have much more knowledge than I regarding all of this and this is precisely why I continue this conversation.
Ultimately it will be I who needs to make a decision on where I stand in all of this.
I do appreciate the noting of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs and agree with that.
Religion definitely has coercion involved and does in many ways attempt to control the lives of people and dictate their way of life. My recollection of the New Testament tells me that Jesus was not like that. As far as I can see he taught the truth to whoever wished to listen.
I will look at the other spin off Blog Robert!
Cheers,
Terry
December 17th, 2007 at 7:54 am
Hi All,
Fascinating blog, Mr Ironwolf! I have to say you are being brave in opening yourself up so much, even in a safely remote medium like the internet. I got here through researching Mr Weinland, who I had never heard of until today.
Two points:
Firstly, I have not read all of your discussion with Terry, but I would like to state that belief in God is a gift of God. The Holy Spirit enables faith. That means that no rational argument can make you a believer. Two people can hear the same story from the same sermon at the same time - one may believe while the other doesn’t. Why does one get the gift and not the other? I don’t know. But “God is not willing that anyone should perish” which is why life consists of 70 years or so, not just one sermon. Many who stop believing in God do so because of the church, or the people in it. Sadly, we’re all sinful, we’re all human, and we all get things wrong. We need to see past the sinful people in the church and see God instead.
Secondly - Mr Weinland. I believe we are in the end-times because Jesus and the apostles said so - if we were then, then we are now. As to specific, if Mr Weinland is one of teh two Witnesses, then fine. Time will tell. Keep checking everything he says with scripture, and do the same for everyone else who makes claims. False prophets are everywhere, as you can see from Sue’s post, and many of them look very attractive. When asked about it, Jesus said, basically, “Keep your eyes open and think about what you are seeing”. Anyone can see Tsunamis, earthquakes, economic difFiculties - we all live in that reality. But what do they mean, if anything? What should my attitude be to them , and to God? That’s what’s important.
Thanks for sharing a great blog with the world,
Dave.
December 17th, 2007 at 9:05 am
Just spent the last 2 hours of my possilby limited existance on this fragile planet (lol) doing the very same thing Terry warned and lamented of: losing all my work.
I was forewarned: I knew the truth, and chose to ignore it. I willingly and hubristically assumed it could not happen to me did not APPLY to me. It was thru some lack of Robert’s own that he lost his work: His reality did not apply to My Own.
There was wisdom and I did not heed it. There was proof of a very real possibility and I willingly WILLINGLY chose to ignore it.
For me that is my lesson for the day. The universe may very well leave footprints after all.
Pax
December 17th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Evolution is a joke.. Robert you really think we just evolved? Let me guess, from monkeys right? lol You said you were in mr armstrong’s church. Well what did u learn from it? All i see is that you got discouraged and did a complete 360 for the worse..But I am not judging you and if you are happy than that is all that matters. I just feel that you are spiritually dead right now and that is not a good thing. Like i said though, you will know the truth sooner than you can imagine. And how awful will it be, to be at God’s judgement throne and being judged for all the sins you have committed. But of course you dont believe that will ever happen.But its all good, i will pray for you whether you want me to or not. I am not saying i am any better than you. Dont get me wrong. I would love to help you and open your mind but i doubt that will happen. Right now u are in the dark along with the rest of the world. That is why there is only about 400 people in Ron’s church. That was all said in the bible, that at the end time the true church will be extremely small. And it is. But come april it will grow huge, because people will see what is happening and they are all gonna jump on the bandwagon. 1 question for you.. Why out of the 6000 years man has been on earth have we only seen real technology within the past 100 years?? Think about that.. God could have givin us technolgy lets say 2000 years ago but he didnt because he knew man would destroy himself as we are doing now..Man can not govern himself..We just cant do it. It was all apart of the plan. I can get into the plan in more depth but not right now.. I doubt anything i say will open ur eyes because i know that u are well well under the grip of the devil right now. It happens to us all Robert. Demons are among us and that is 100%. Look at the world right now. Can u honestly see it going on for another 100 years lets say? I can keep going on and on but i will save it for another discussion. You might wanna hit me with leprachan talk again so i will save my facts for another time.. Digest what i have written here and really think about it.
December 17th, 2007 at 4:17 pm
Terry and Sue,
Because of your recent bad experiences with my captcha plug-in, I have replaced it with ReCAPTCHA, a much newer technology. I have verified that if you enter the captcha incorrectly you are returned to the same page with your previous form contents intact.
Nonetheless, I still recommend you use a separate editor for in-depth comments.
December 17th, 2007 at 4:28 pm
Jay,
“Evolution is a joke.” Great refutation! I am now a Christian again.
All I can say is that you are ignorant about what Evolution really says, Jay. Go do some homework and then come back.
Apparently you even lack elementary knowledge of geometry, because “doing a 360″ leaves you facing in the same direction!
First you say you’re not judging me, then you say I’m “spiritually dead.” You have a strange way of not judging.
You ask, “Why out of the 6000 years man has been on earth have we only seen real technology within the past 100 years??” More homework: Go read some of Ray Kurtzweil’s works on futurism. Technology has been advancing throughout all history, but like many positive feedback loops, it gathers energy as it goes. God didn’t “give us” technology— we invented it. Can you point to a single scripture where it says God gave man a technology? The story says he didn’t even want us to know the difference between good and evil, you idiot.
Your kind would rather accuse people of being demon-possessed rather than argue based on the merits. All I can say is that if the quality of your discourse is any indication, then you are exactly the sort of follower Ron Weinland is looking to exploit.
December 17th, 2007 at 5:38 pm
Robert,
Thanks for the reCAPTCHA. I will be happy to know that my initial failure will not result in anyone else’s (hahahahaha).
I would like to ask your permission to link to these blogs through my web-site! I find it valuable for myself as a Christian and others to understand the opposing point of view. I will most certainly be chastised and if that is the case so be it. Like you said to me before they can make of my character what they will.
With respect I request your permission. If you don’t desire me to offer the link I will understand!
Cheers,
Terry
December 17th, 2007 at 6:16 pm
Hahaha. That was great. You got me there on my geometry skills. So you did a 180. You were in the right direction at one point. Also I am not in Ron Weinland’s church because i am not obeserving the saturday sabbath due to work issues (stated in past response). So Therfore Ron Weinland is not exploting me, you idiot. My kind..lol..you just keep on believing whatever u want, and i will do the same. Time will tell. And if nothing happens next year i will go on believing in God and I will still know that we are in the end times. It is pretty obvious to me. Just open your eyes and look at the way the world is. Do you watch the news, read the paper? You seem smart so Im sure you do. But you can go on thinking theres some science to it. Im sure you believe in this global warming garbage right? haha Keep thinking that too. No scripture says that God gave us technology. But he did. Theres no need for me to read Ray Kurtzweil. He is wrong. Go back and listen to Herbert W. That is some real knowledge for you. If you want me to kick more knowledge let me know. Cheers!
December 17th, 2007 at 7:00 pm
Sigh
Ok, I see your point regarding certain points of view, Mr. Iron-clad. Certainly this isssue is a polarizing one.(no offence Jay)
But the above is no refutation for the possibility of alternative realities…once you commit to athieism, do you not close the door on an open mind? To go from one very extrreme world view to the other end of the spectrum seems more reactionary than methodical in thought. You do run the risk of throwing out the baby with the bathwater: deceptive and hollow philosophies too have their purpose. That does not mean the essential truth, amongst the chaff , COULD not exist in some form. To deny is to officially close one’s mind, when according to what is knowable, may be very limited indeed, athiestically or not.
This is my rationale for not embracing the vaccum that is a Godless universe. You just cannot in any certainty refute the POSSIBILITY: and if that allows for unicorns and fairies, then I guess that’s the price I’ll have to pay. No I am not certain, but neither do I have the hubris to assume that I am past the information-gathering stage and on to certainties that I cannot in any way prove OR disprove. It all ends up in one leap of faith or another, whether the virgin birth or the Missing lLnk, and to pretend otherwise is nothing less than intellectual suicide.
Remember that we all confirm our world views with post facto cherry-picking of concepts that defend our position. The true open mind makes no promises, and refutes no possibilites, but it may indicate probabilites. The probablility that we evolved from a big cosmic poof? Intellectually challenging. At least as much as any other explaination, and just as refutable. It is an even playing field for the objective viewer.
This is an interesting way to pass the time: but we all know the fruitlessness of trying to convince others of convictions we come to on our own. Minds and hearts are not open to opposition: we may politely concede points, but in the end, it comes right down to that leap to fill in the missing Links, or Gaps.
We all play the lemming. Some blindly following, some leading the pack, surging ahead in arrogance of certainty. The true intellectual will only concede that their abilility to know anything for certain, is tenuous at best.
Therefore my mind remains open and unpolarized. I will continue to weigh the evidence instead of attempting to prove one way or another a foregone conclusion resulting from backlash or negative experinces, or a decision based on emotionalism.
Go ahead and refute at will. I don’t expect any concession of points. Just realize you are as religious in your zeal as the other extreme that you decry: and this my friend does not do your own process of inquiry any favours.
The best mind is an open one: and the least likely to bear arms against its neighbour.
Pax (in the Non Roman Empire sense of the word)
December 17th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
By the way,tx for the ReCAPTCHA. We are ALL growing and learning.
December 17th, 2007 at 8:04 pm
Sue,
I am not “committed to atheism.” I am committed to questioning everything. My current beliefs are just that: my current beliefs.
If you really start reading what I’ve written, you’ll see that I don’t deny that there is “truth” (i.e., wisdom) in religions. I do deny the factuality of their metaphysics due to lack of evidence or internal contradictions— those things are not “truth.” See, some words are quite overloaded: “truth” is one such word. “wisdom” and “factuality” are not so overloaded, so let’s use the more precise terms.
I certainly accept the possibility that there is a God. I just see no reason to live as if there is. Even Richard Dawkins, perhaps the most prominent public atheist alive today, titles the central chapter in his bestselling book The God Delusion, “Why There Almost Certainly is No God.” (Emphasis mine.) If Dawkins is willing to admit to even a small amount of doubt, then I think that means that people like he and I are open to new information.
On the other hand, are you as a believer willing to say, “I believe there is almost certainly a God?” Are you willing to admit to doubt?
See, it doesn’t all end up on one leap of faith or another. Where my knowledge is incomplete, I simply say “I don’t know.” Where a believer’s knowledge is incomplete they say, “I know because my articles of faith tell me that I know.” This is fallacious, while simply saying “I don’t know” is honorable and leaves the door open to eventually knowing through valid means. Faith slams the door and welds it shut.
You presume far too much about who I am, and who atheists are. As I have said, some of us are zealots, and some are quiet. If you want to think of me as a zealot, fine, but I am zealous for the truth. If you have evidence for a higher truth I would like to see it, and if it is convincing then I will change my beliefs. But don’t come here and tell me I’m just as likely to pick up arms against you as argue with you, that is simply insulting.
December 17th, 2007 at 9:11 pm
Hi again Robert,
I prefaced all potentially inflamatory comments with the caveat that I do not intend to insult. To take offence where none is intended is a choice.
As are so many things in life. I assume nothing except that you prehaps have some experiential bias that has polarized you. This is only based on the evidence of a traumatized youth that you yourself have provided. Even you cannot deny the veracity of that statement, at least not very convincingly.
You assume that I am certain…I told you my mind is open to both sides. You claim yours is too, but I certainly see where you are leaning.
So far nothing compells me categorically either way.
I do have some experiential proof, but you would discount it due to my lack of Proper Evidence, such as a video recording, which in any case also could be doctored. Even I do not quite believe it at times, so how could I expect it to be convincing anyone else? Its like seeing a ghost: either you are crazy or very mistaken. But I take my cues from what I experience, as that is my frame of reference, as personal as is yours.
Again there is no definitive anything. See Quantum physics and Oganized Chaos. And you are quite wrong that there is no leap. I made no fallacious argument, I cast my vote in the middle, pending further examination. But we all have our personal bias.
Of course I am willing to admit doubt, or I would be on the Biblethumpers.org website instead, have you not read my position? You tend to see and hear what you wish. That does not speak of a mind open to all possibilites. Be careful lest you deteriorate into an agent for the Opposite, instead of a true seeker of the nature of the universe and all that it encompases.
You leap, therefore you Are.
Your fellow lemming,
Sue
December 17th, 2007 at 9:42 pm
Sue,
Please explain to me how saying, “I don’t know,” where one feels the evidence is inconclusive amounts to a “leap of faith.”
December 17th, 2007 at 10:03 pm
Sure
A self-proclaimed athiest does not say “I dont know”, becuase that would render him an agnostic in an athiest’s clothing.
Theism ? The belief that gods or deities exist and interact with the universe. [2]
Atheism ? A lack of belief that gods exist. [3]
Deism ? The belief that a god or gods exists, but does not interact with the universe. [4]
Agnosticism ? The belief that there is no way to know about gods or deities. [5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism
December 17th, 2007 at 10:09 pm
I would be genuinely interested to know where you might feel that “the evidence is inconclusive”.
Where do your doubts, if any, lie?
December 17th, 2007 at 10:36 pm
Just doing some MORE research: congratulations for escaping the tenticles of this cult, and I sincerly hope your wife escapes soon.
You are a survivor. No loving creator would support these man-made doctrines of ridgid law-based religiosity.
You are doing a service to those still trapped inside.
December 17th, 2007 at 10:36 pm
Sue,
If someone says, “my god exists,” and cannot provide conclusive evidence, then there is no compulsion to believe in that god. Nonetheless, if someone asks me if I know that person’s god does not exist, I would say, “No, I do not know.” Nonetheless, I call myself an “atheist” because I do not live as if that person’s unsubstantiated god might exist— I do not spend sleepless nights wondering how I may propitiate a god that only might exist because there are a million known and unknown gods that only might exist and it is madness to insist I worry about how to propitiate them all.
So, I ask you again: where am I taking my “leap of faith?”
December 17th, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Sue,
Oh, so you like quoting Wikipedia? There is more than one kind of atheist. Look here.
December 17th, 2007 at 10:57 pm
Sue,
The Worldwide Church of God is not the cult it once was. In fact, it is much more akin to the rest of mainstream Christianity than the apocalyptic cult that Ron Weinland runs. So, if my wife ever “escapes” to anything, it will probably be non-belief of some kind. But her path is her own.
December 18th, 2007 at 12:44 am
Terry,
You don’t have to ask for my permission to link to me. What I put here is public. But if you feel like you need my permission, then you have it.