Comments on: Claims vs. the Other Three C’s http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413 It's easy when you show them how. Fri, 05 Sep 2008 22:45:40 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.2 By: Dave Stephens http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36508 Dave Stephens Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:39:34 +0000 http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36508 ...indeed, it was the bracket. So this should work: :-) ;-) :-D ? OK, all smiley'd out now... …indeed, it was the bracket. So this should work: :-) ;-) :-D ?

OK, all smiley’d out now…

]]> By: Dave Stephens http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36506 Dave Stephens Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:38:08 +0000 http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36506 Oh no! My smiley didn't! Maybe it's :), or ;)? Or is it the second bracket that caused the problem :-) Oh no! My smiley didn’t! Maybe it’s :), or ;)? Or is it the second bracket that caused the problem :-)

]]> By: Dave Stephens http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36505 Dave Stephens Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:35:39 +0000 http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36505 Hi Mr Ironwolf, That's cool. I have a busy few day myself, and look forward to this discussion in due course. In the meantime I bid you a : happy Christmas/blessed Yuletide/great Winter Holiday (delete as appropriate, :-)) Dave. Hi Mr Ironwolf,

That’s cool. I have a busy few day myself, and look forward to this discussion in due course. In the meantime I bid you a :

happy Christmas/blessed Yuletide/great Winter Holiday

(delete as appropriate, :-))

Dave.

]]> By: Ironwolf http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36504 Ironwolf Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:11:33 +0000 http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36504 Dave, Thanks for your answer to the challenge. I haven't had time to go over it but I expect to in a few days. Dave,

Thanks for your answer to the challenge. I haven’t had time to go over it but I expect to in a few days.

]]> By: bipolar2 http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36493 bipolar2 Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:56:31 +0000 http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36493 <i>Off-topic rant deleted. This exact text appears several other placed on the net. Never let it be said that I won't delete something that doesn't belong here , even if it's by an atheist.</i> <!-- ** Holy insight, Batman! God is The Joker. ** Twittering about an alleged god, gods, maybe a divine committee in charge of the universe is unimportant and uninteresting. A minimum standard god enthroned by U.S. courts ("in god we trust") or a god of some double-thinking scientist, or the god of Kant simply cannot be established to be "the" divinity claimed by each of the inconsistent big-3 monotheisms. I can have opinions about a fictitious character ‘Hamlet’ as presented by Shakespeare in his play, 'The Tragedy of Hamlet.' I can also have opinions about a mythological being ‘God’ as presented in the so-called synoptic gospels of NT. (Or ‘Allah’ in the Koran, or ‘Yahweh’ in Genesis.) All I know about these cosmic constructs is what I can read in question begging pages directly devoted to them. I can no more find ‘God’ by doing astronomical research than I can disinter ‘Hamlet's’ bones in a chapel at Elsinore. When Nietzsche said, "God is dead" he added a gloss — the cultural fact that “belief in the Christian God has become unbelievable." ** the obscenity of comic book monotheism ** The almighty lords of dualism: Ahura Mazda, Yahweh, God, Allah are the moral equivalent of a comic book super-villain. God is The Joker. Sacred comix nonetheless enjoy fanatical cult followings. Delusional geeks parsing “Batman Lives.” All theology is third-rate fan fiction. Near eastern religious myth is bad enough. Political ideology fronting as monotheistic belief is even worse. Wherever political ideology reduces to politico-theology, secular society fails. To the true believer: Secularism corrupts. Tolerance capitulates to evil. Only the pure (= morally stunted self-righteous know-nothings) are “saved” from fictitious “sins.” Holy text is merely pretext. Ideology masquerading as religion bamboozles the masses, the media. Telemullahs there, televangelists here. Real terrorist threats to the US: xians undermining the Constitution, trashing biological sciences, and perverting education to suit a totalitarian ideology of social control and cultural domination. The disgusting Bushite wannabe dictatorship represents only a failed prototype. Homegrown christo-fascists threaten the life of the Republic far more than all so-called islamo-fascists combined. bipolar2 c. 2007 --> Off-topic rant deleted. This exact text appears several other placed on the net. Never let it be said that I won’t delete something that doesn’t belong here , even if it’s by an atheist.

]]> By: Dave Stephens http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36444 Dave Stephens Thu, 20 Dec 2007 00:43:07 +0000 http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36444 Hi Mr Ironwolf, Here's my response to the "Easter Challenge". It's a bit lengthy, but I can't avoid that. The Easter challenge, as laid out, called for some specific things (copied directly from the linked website – check for yourself, please): • Using Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, John 20-21, Acts 1:3-12 and I Corinthians 15:3-8, tell the Easter story • Write a chronological Narrative of everything between the resurrection and the ascension without omitting a single detail from these separate accounts. • Since the gospels do not always give precise times of day, it is permissible to make educated guesses. • The narrative does not have to pretend to present a perfect picture--it only needs to give at least one plausible account of all of the facts. • Additional explanation of the narrative may be set apart in parentheses This I have attempted and the results are below. Before you read it, please consider the following. The challenge does not ask me to try to convert you to Christianity – you are not asked to alter your belief or disbelief of the account in the passages per se. This is a literary exercise only – do the 6 accounts stack up, or are they flawed? I appreciate that emotion and belief system rides on this, but the language and tone of the original challenge calls for calm, reasoned argument, not emotional rejection of an answer on prejudice. Likewise, arguments as to the authorship of the gospels are not the issue here – you may not agree with the authorship, but that is a separate question. Also, please note that in the interests of clarity I have shortened the speech – the essence of the challenge is to show the chronological structure of the story, not to make you read through every word. If you feel that I am attempting to smuggle out an important detail in this way, please let me know and I can easily reproduce this with all the speech in place – I just think it is hard enough to read 6 simultaneous accounts with out that extra detail to keep in mind. Naturally, where the speech contains significant detail, I have included it, as demanded by the challenge. I have added scriptural references for the details in the account – please check them for yourself, so that you know I am not making it up. Finally, I have added a couple of footnotes (as the challenge allows) to add to the explanation without detracting from the passage The Resurrection to the Ascension: After the Sabbath (Matt 28v1, Mark 16v1, Luke 24v1, John 20v1), at dawn (Matt 28v1, Mark 16v1, Luke 24v1, John 20v1 see note 1) Mary Magdalene (Matt 28v1, Mark 16v1, Luke 24v10, John 20v1), the other Mary (Matt 28v1, Mark 16v1, Luke 24v10), Salome (Mark 16v1), Joana (Luke 24v10), and the others with them (Luke 24v10) (note the list of names are not mutually exclusive or contradictory) went to look at the tomb and to bring spices (Mark 16v1, Luke 24v1). They knew it was sealed with a big stone, because they saw it happen on the Friday (Matt 27v61, Mark 15v47, Luke 24v55), but they may not have known it was guarded, as that happened on the Saturday (Matt 27v62-66). As they were on the way, the ladies discussed who would roll the stone away (Mark 16v3). There was a violent earthquake, caused by an angel, who rolled away the stone and sat on it (Matt 28v2). The guards fainted (Matt 28v4). The ladies looked up, and saw that the stone had been rolled away (Mar16v4, Luke 24v2, John 20v1). So Mary ran to fetch Peter (Luke 24v12) and John (Luke 24v12, John 20v2) and told them that the Lord’s body had been taken out of the tomb (John 20v2). The women said nothing to anyone as they left the tomb (Mark 16v8). Peter was concerned enough to check their story (Luke 24v12) and went to the tomb in a race with John (John 20v3), where he found the strips of cloth that has covered Jesus’ body, but no body (Luke 24v12, John 20v7) and he “wondered to himself” (Luke 24v12). John went in and saw what Peter saw, and believed (John 20v8), although neither of them understood (John 20v9). John and Peter went home (John 20v10), but Mary stayed behind, crying outside the tomb (John 20v11). The angel who rolled the stone away talked to the women (Matt 28v5-7), and may have been one of the two mentioned in Luke 24v4 and John 20v12. The women entered the tomb (Mark 16v5, John 20v12), did not find Jesus’ body (Luke 24v3) but saw a “young man” sitting on the right side, who tells them that Jesus is risen; the “young man” is not further identified, but could have been one of the two mentioned in Luke 24v2 and John 24v12, who are also said to have been sitting.. In the course of the speech to the women, they were told who they were looking for (Matt 28v5, Mark 16v6, Luke 24v5), Jesus is not here (Matt 28v6, Mark 16v6, Luke 24v6), He has risen (Matt 28v6, Mark 16v6, Luke 24v6), tell his disciples (Matt 28v 7, Mark 16v7), go to Galilee (Matt 28v7, Mark 16v7). Finally, the angels asked Mary why she was still weeping (John 20v13) and Mary said it was she did not know where Jesus body was (John 20v13), which demonstrates that she did not believe He had risen at that point. The women left, to tell the disciples, but on the way they met Jesus (Matt 28v8-9, John 20v14), although they did not at first recognise Him (John 20v15) until He spoke to Mary by name (John 20v16). Jesus told Mary not to hold onto Him (John 20v17 – note, not “Don’t touch me”, as is often believed) but to go to the disciples and tell them that Jesus will return to His Father (in heaven) (John 20v17). Jesus told the women to tell the disciples to go to Galilee, where they would meet Him (Matt 28v10, Mark 16v7, see note 2 regarding how many men/angels/Jesus were at the tomb). Note also that Luke records the women’s names as they went to the disciples after going to the tomb, whereas the others list those who went to the tomb – it must be reasonable to suppose that there is some overlap between these two groups, ie the group that went to the tomb then went to the disciples, although it is possible that some left the group en route, and others joined it. As the women were going to the disciples, some of the guards had evidently awoken from their faint, and they went and sorted out a story (Matt 28v11-15) to explain the disappearance of the body. Mary Magdalene (Mark 16v10, John 20v18), Joana Mary and the others with them (Luke 24v10) went to tell the disciples who were “mourning and weeping” (Mark 16v10). They did not believe their story (Mark 16v11, Luke 24v11, see note 3). Later on the same day (Luke 24v13), Jesus met 2 of His followers (at least one was not of the Eleven, as he was called Cleopas (Luke 24v18)) on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24v17), about 7 miles away (Luke 24v17) in the country (Mark 16v12). Jesus questioned them about his own crucifixion and what it meant, and rebuked them for not understanding what they were witnessing and then proceeded to explain it all to them(Luke 24v17-27). They recognised Him when He broke the bread at their evening meal (Luke 24v28-31). Note that these 2 followers had at least heard of all that had happened early in the morning, and may even have been present, as they summarised the actions of the women and Peter and John (Luke 24v22-24). Later that same day in the evening (John 20v19), back at Jerusalem the disciples were discussing the morning’s strange events (Luke 24v36) behind locked doors (John 20v19), as they were eating (Mark 16v14, Luke 24v42) Jesus appeared to the Eleven (Mark 16v14, Luke 24v33, John 20v19) and also those with them (Luke 24v33), although Thomas was not there (John 20v24). Jesus rebuked them for their lack of faith (Mark 16v14, Luke 24v38) and their refusal to believe those who had seen Him (a different issue) (Mark 16v14). He also said to them “Peace be with you” (John 20v20) and showed them his hands and side (John 20v20), and the disciples were overjoyed (John 20v20). The two disciples from the road to Emmaus returned later the same evening (Luke 24v33) to “the rest” (Mark 16v13) at Jerusalem (Luke 24v33), after another 7 mile journey, and told what had happened and how they recognised Jesus (Luke 24v35), but they did not believe them either (Mark 16v13), although they were saying “The Lord has appeared to Simon(Peter)” (Luke 24v34). Thomas refused to believe, until he could touch Jesus for himself (John 20v24), since he had missed the event. A week later he got his wish, as Jesus again appeared even though the doors were locked, said “Peace be with you again” and allowed Thomas to touch Him (John 20v26-27). Thomas then believed (John 20v28) The Eleven went to Galilee, to the mountain Jesus had told them to go to (Matt 28v16), which rises above The Sea of Tiberius (Lake Galilee) (John 21v1). Matthew does not record when, or on what day they went, but it’s about 50 miles as the crow flies, although the crow is missing out the mountainous terrain. My understanding is that it was at least 4 days’ walk. When they saw Him, they worshipped, but some doubted (Matt 28v17), because they were not all there together (John 21v2). They recognised Jesus when he repeated the same miracle that he had shown when calling Peter, Andrew, James and John to be His first disciples (Luke 5v1-7, cf John 21v4-6) This was the third time that Jesus had appeared to the disciples (John 21v14) – once without Thomas, once with Thomas, and now here (the women and the 2 on the road to Emmaus were followers, not part of the disciples). Jesus then had breakfast with them, spoke to Peter and prophesied that he would not die peacefully (John 21 v11-19). Peter asked Jesus what would happen to John, and Jesus said “Mind your own business” (abbreviated version!) (John 21v20-23). Later Jesus came and spoke to them again, giving them the Great Commission (Matt 28v18-20, Mark 16v15). Note this is a different occasion to Matt 28v17 – in 17 He was with them, so in order to “come to them” in 18 Jesus must have gone away from them, or they from Him. On another occasion, He told the disciples to stay in Jerusalem until they had received the Holy Spirit (Acts 1v4, Luke 24v49). Then Jesus ascended into heaven (Luke 24v51, Mark 16v19, Mark does not record from where He ascended, or when, just that it was ‘later’. It is unlikely to be the same occasion as in Mark 16v14, or even v15-18, as he starts 19 with the word “After” – if it had been the same occasion he would most likely have said “Immediately”, which is a standard Mark-ism.) Luke records it as being in the vicinity of Bethany (Luke 24v50) and specifies it still further in Acts 1v12, as being the Mount of Olives, which is on the road between Jerusalem and Bethany, about ¾ of a mile away. Once again, there were angels there who spoke to the disciples and they assured them of Jesus’ return (Acts 1v10-11). Paul records in 1 Corinthians 15 that Jesus appeared to the Peter and the Twelve (Note that Matthias had replaced Judas by the time of Paul’s writing, and a condition of his election was that he had been with Jesus from “John’s baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us” (Acts 1v22), hence Jesus had appeared to him along with the Eleven) and to the wider disciples which he numbers at over 500 (1 Cor 15v6). He then appeared to James and “all the apostles” (1 Cor 15v7) and also finally to Paul (after His ascension, see Acts 9v1-19, which is why Paul remarks “as to one abnormally born”). The time between the resurrection and ascension is recorded as being 40 days (Acts 1v3). Footnotes: 1 The timing is described variously as “dawn”, “while it was still dark”, “very early in the morning”, “just after sunrise”. I expect there is no need to state this, but none of these are an attempt to pinpoint a time accurately, as in “at 06:15 they went”, but describes that period of the day before the sun is up and the day is fully light. Anyone who is a bird-watcher, night watchman or similar, and sees the day in can tell you that night blends into day from dark, through twilight, through sunrise, and then lightens into day. Further, the ladies had to get up, go to the city gates and out to the tombs, probably on foot, which would have taken some minutes. It could easily have been dark when they left the house and just after sunrise when they arrived at the tomb, so all timings are valid. 2 How long did all this take? It takes less than a minute to read each individual account, but it certainly took significantly longer to unfold. Mary, at least, was at the tomb twice that morning (see also point 3, below), and in the meantime she had to fetch Peter and John, and each spent time inside and outside the tomb, wondering, seeing and weeping (and presumably catching their breath after the run!). Did the angels just say a couple of sentences and then pop off? I doubt it; it is more likely that there was much more conversation, which is not recorded word for word, but given as a gist of what was said. (Watch the news today, and you will see reporters saying, for example, “George Bush told Congress today that the war in Iraq is over”, but you can bet he said more than just those 6 words. Even when they show an extract of the speech, you know it’s just the salient points, not the totality). It is the same here. It is not surprising, therefore, that angels are described as standing in one account and sitting in another. Only in stained glass windows do angels stand still as statues, wings furled. In the bible they are often described as looking like men, and they walk, talk, eat and seem like any human – people are often unaware that they were angels until after they had left. Further, Jesus also looked like a man after he was resurrected (unsurprisingly), and it is possible that he is the unnamed “Young man”. I am not so well versed in the study of angels to be definitive on this point, but I believe that length of time that these events would take in real life allows for the varying description of those seen. 3. “In AD43 Julius Caesar invaded Britain” – history books are full of quotes like this. No one takes them to mean that he did it on his own, just that he was a leader of those who did the work. Likewise there is a much more corporate sense to the bible (and the middle east in general) than we are used to in the western world. Hence, the bible speaks of Jesus appearing to the “Eleven” when Thomas quite clearly wasn’t there. In the same way, we might say that we have presented plans to the board at work, when not all members were present – we are speaking of the majority representing the whole. Here, Mary Magdalene is a leader among the women, so she gets more mention than the others, even though the overall view of the accounts is that more women were present. Similarly, Paul speaks of Jesus visiting Peter first, when there were clearly many others in the room at the time – but Peter was chief. Again “the disciples did not believe” represents a majority view, as we already know that John at least believed, even if he did not understand. In our example, I might say “the board rejected my plans for the new office”, but in fact some on the board may have liked them – the majority won the day however, and the final decision may have gone against me. The same notion applies here. By: Terry Baldwin http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36417 Terry Baldwin Wed, 19 Dec 2007 13:11:17 +0000 http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36417 Robert, I would submit to that. The results of the test (whether I pass or fail) will not be graded during my earthly life as I know it according to my belief in God. Cheers, Terry Robert,

I would submit to that. The results of the test (whether I pass or fail) will not be graded during my earthly life as I know it according to my belief in God.

Cheers,
Terry

]]> By: Ironwolf http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36416 Ironwolf Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:39:51 +0000 http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36416 Terry, As long as you're talking about your faith from a subjective viewpoint and not asserting anything testable, you'll not get any conflict from me. :) Terry,

As long as you’re talking about your faith from a subjective viewpoint and not asserting anything testable, you’ll not get any conflict from me. :)

]]> By: Ironwolf http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36415 Ironwolf Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:34:00 +0000 http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36415 Dave, Your articles of faith may dictate what you <i>must</i> make John 21 to mean, and your articles of faith may also dictate that only the blind or demon-possessed could possibly think otherwise. And I grant that even today some authors speak of themselves in the third person. But I think, rather, that there is much room to disagree with that interpretation of those scriptures. Pretty much <i>everyone</i> is spoken of in the third person, so there must be something to identify John the character in the story with the author/narrator. I read John 21 and I see nothing of the kind. Dave,

Your articles of faith may dictate what you must make John 21Open Link in New Window to mean, and your articles of faith may also dictate that only the blind or demon-possessed could possibly think otherwise. And I grant that even today some authors speak of themselves in the third person.

But I think, rather, that there is much room to disagree with that interpretation of those scriptures. Pretty much everyone is spoken of in the third person, so there must be something to identify John the character in the story with the author/narrator. I read John 21Open Link in New Window and I see nothing of the kind.

]]> By: Terry Baldwin http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36414 Terry Baldwin Wed, 19 Dec 2007 12:16:53 +0000 http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/413#comment-36414 Good Morning Robert, Nice little slide in with scripture (Revelation 11:18). Revelation to me is an account of what will take place and I feel that there will be events that Science will find too extraordinary attempt to reason. This is why I have not stated Global Warming although you could see the results and possibly compare them to Revelation. Of course I will have to throw in the argument that I believe God made man and therefore I could say that it is God's doing but frankly I don't desire to debate that. I would choose to believe that something will happen so magnanimous that it will be difficult to not accept a higher power at work. Cheers, Terry Good Morning Robert,

Nice little slide in with scripture (Revelation 11:18Open Link in New Window).

Revelation to me is an account of what will take place and I feel that there will be events that Science will find too extraordinary attempt to reason. This is why I have not stated Global Warming although you could see the results and possibly compare them to Revelation.

Of course I will have to throw in the argument that I believe God made man and therefore I could say that it is God’s doing but frankly I don’t desire to debate that.

I would choose to believe that something will happen so magnanimous that it will be difficult to not accept a higher power at work.

Cheers,
Terry

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