Interest in Ron Weinland remains high, and after another 250 or so comments, it’s time to begin a third thread.
Part 1
Part 2
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February 11th, 2008 at 11:49 am
well, let’s give th guy some credit. he sure has people talking. THIRD thread? wow!
February 11th, 2008 at 12:12 pm
I’m still not ready to write him off yet. I am waiting to see the ‘proof in the pudding’, and until then I will continue to monitor this forum.
February 11th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Question………….can anyone direct me to any columns or announcements written by the Pope on the this subject. I would be interested to hear his views on the supposed tribulation coming.
February 11th, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Why not give him credit? First ask yourself: Did I believe in Herbert Armstrong? (or any other former minister from the WCG that now claims to be carryon HWA’s teachings for that matter)
The reason you must ask yourself this is Ronald Weinlands beliefs MIRROR just about all of the FALSE TEACHINGS Armstrong spewed out.
There are THOUSANDS, if not MILLIONS of people that will tell you that what Armstrong taught was nothing short of nonsense, including the books he wrote.
Weinland is a Armstrong wannabee–period.
Weinland is so far off base, it’s not even funny. He even uses EXACT quotes in his sermons and in his books that Armstrong used so many years ago.
I am not trying to covert anyone, because this is not about spirituality, it’s about prophecy, and Weinland is not prophet. What’s he’s doing is no different than ME or YOU watching current events and trying to paste them to Bible prophecies.
For the Bible believers out there— that’s not what God commanded in Scripture.
February 11th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Congratulation to your 3rd blog page, wonderful work, dear Robert! Also meant to all spiritual writers in here!
@Kingsheart: I think the pope is fully aware of the importance of biblically prophecies which are wellfounded. He just has no time to spend in reading weak-minded books from one of the thousands of self-proclaimed “prophets of the end-time“.
If we are living in the so-calles “end-time”, it would be time to think about our attidudes. But this wouldnt be a special task only for our generation or some small groups in the English-speaken world. It would concern the whole world! A real prophet inspired and appointed by God has to do quite another job than Ron is doing. A real prophet has to preach “in the whole world” and “to all the nations” (Matt 24:14
)!
Tell me how many languages Ron does command?
)? Or is Ronald Weinland just a beggarly fellow ?
Is he highly gifted like the apostles speaking in languages they didnt learn (Acts 2:4
February 11th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Kingsheart,
The e-mail address you used to subscribe to these comments is bouncing. Please re-subscribe with one that works. Thanks!
February 12th, 2008 at 6:57 am
Robert,
you started this site with: “Interest in Ron Weinland remains high”. Is it? I want to say it this way:
Interest in Robert’s blog and talking about spiritual things remains at a high level!
My interest in Ron Weinland ist marginal cause I believe in the Word of God and not in taletellers.
February 12th, 2008 at 9:12 am
Reinhard, I was not looking for comments on what the Pope thinks of this idiot. Only what the Popes thoughts were on this time period and whether he speaks about end times at all. At no time did i question whether the Pope was “aware” or not.
IronWolf, I apologize. I left an “N” out of “Sonny”
February 12th, 2008 at 10:12 am
Hi all,
I don’t have time to post often, but I thought I’d contribute since the opposite viewpoint is mostly absent.
I notice a trend here that seems to state that because RW holds the same beliefs as HWA, that is synonymous with wrong. Also, that if you believe either of them, then you are a biblical illiterate.
It’s not my purpose to defend either of them or their theology but to state a few facts of logic. What seems to get left out is that those who follow the doctrines taught by HWA & RW find no contradiction between those doctrines and what they find in their bibles. They (we) see error in the world’s religions because they do not stand up to scripture in their/tour estimation. The longer and farther they/we study the bible, the more the teachings of both men are proveable & the more disproveable any other system of belief becomes.
There is a universal truth that all people have free choice. Simply by speaking louder or more passionately (I think of Fox news commentators) doesn’t make the speaker more valid or right. Majority doesn’t make something correct. Neither does minority or anything inbetween. Thinking, reasoning people take in all facts and if they have belief in God, seek Him for answers, asking for truth & not deception. Then each person decides what he/she believes. The problem lies in what people consider “facts”. That’s where discernment comes into play. Each person must discern what is truth and what is error. People will not find those of us who hold to the beliefs taught by RW don’t feel the need to defend our beliefs because the truth, to us, stands and falls on it’s own. Each person must decide what that truth is.
I saw the posted speculation regarding Johnny Harrell, the new evangelist in the US. He is not affiliated with the organization CPDL. The Church of God is not involved in politics, etc. We don’t hole up in compounds and stockpile weapons either. Actually, we are conscientious objectors and don’t even serve in the military.
bzygirl
February 12th, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Bzygirl,
Thank you for your input. It’s nice to see an actual Weinland follower here. I have one question: Why, in your opinion, why is Gerald Flurry or Roderick Meredith, FALSE in Ronald Weinland’s eyes. After all, both of those men claim to be carrying on the works of HWA and both gentlemen advocate the book, Mystery of the Ages. In fact, Gerald Flurry owns the publishing rights to it.
Ronald Weinland also advocates this book. To me, if any of them are true prophets (which Flurry and Meredith claim to be), then all of them should have merit. But Weinland makes very harsh charges against the other two, even going as far as to say these guys will DIE in 2008.
I have read both Ron’s books. And I have read many works by Armstrong, Flurry and Meredith… It all comes back to Armstrongism, there’s nothing different, except the claims by these guys that they are prophets. The teachings on salvation, etc are EXACTLY what Armstrong taught.
Now, I have taken what Armstrong taught and tried to find Biblical TRUTH to it, and for the life of me, I can’t. I find error after error after error.
Now, please tell me what I might be missing.
Again, it’s good to have a Weinland follower on here. It will give a validity to the debate.
February 12th, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Reinhard,
Yes, I said “interest in Weinland remains high.” Once the book is closed on him, this thread will end as well— there are plenty of other places on the net for generic Christian banter.
February 12th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Bzygirl & Jimmyhags,
You both might be missing the fact that the Bible supports a multitude of separate interpretations that are completely internally consistent, yet simultaneously in conflict with each other, and usually in conflict with what we know through modern historical research and science.
I grew up in the WCG, so I can say confidently that what the WCG taught was completely consistent with scripture. But from my perspective now, I can also say that (for instance) the Westboro Baptist Church (the “God Hates Fags” people) are also completely consistent with scripture. More mainstream and even “liberal” Christians are also completely consistent with scripture.
So it doesn’t surprise me at all that Bzygirl finds Weinland’s interpretation completely consistent with scripture, and Jimmyhags also finds his own interpretation completely consistent with scripture, and yet you both find contradictions in each others’ interpretation. Weinland’s case is interesting, however, because he has made easily falsifiable claims about his beliefs. Most popular interpretations of the Bible have withstood the test of time only because they entail no such falsifiable claims.
In my opinion, one of the most damning points against the Bible (and to be fair, many other religions’ holy texts as well) is that it is a cultural fun house mirror in which people see themselves and the world reflected, but distorted in different ways depending on the angle they look from. To see correctly you must stop looking “though a glass darkly” and start looking directly at reality.
February 12th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
Hi Jimmyhags,
Your questions about RWs position toward other ministers are good ones and very understandable. There is an explanation located at http://www.cog-pkg.org/faq/ under the section entitled: Sabbath Observance & Local Congregations and more specifically subtitled under – Additonal information on the Church that was scattered.
At first glance, it can seem that the offshoots of the WCG are like carbon copies of one another. The reality is, they do differ and some, in some pretty major areas. As an example, one of the ministers listed in the 5th thunder, the leader of the Church of the Great God (who is not mentioned above), has changed the observance of Pentecost.
Those in PKG from the churches that scattered have a lot of experience with the ministers listed in Ron’s book on the 5th thunder. Most of us made a stop through at least one of them, prior to God bringing us to PKG. To understand Ron’s strong stance against these ministers, it helps to understand what the end of a false prophet is. Most of the ministers, in the scattered groups, have all taken a position that not only is Ron false but that they, themselves, are true. Some call themselves prophets, other apostles, some ministers. Whether they call themselves prophets or not, they are prophesying – speaking in God’s name for God and telling their people – thus saith the Lord. Simply stated, God must remove false prophets because they have lied in God’s name. Ron understands that he, likewise, falls under the same strict standard.
If you have read Ron’s two books, then you will remember that the purpose of the two witnesses is to usher in the return of Jesus Christ & the Kingdom of God. The final 3.5 years is a transition period. What is false is replaced by what is true. The only way for the Millennium, a time of complete reversal from today’s system, to “get off the ground” is to start with people who are repentant, submitted to God & teachable. The ministers mentioned not only do not fit this category by God’s standard, but they keep those they teach from the same.
Obviously, anyone is free to disagree. For those who believe in God, we should be able to agree on one truth at least – our opinions won’t change God’s plans for His creation. Time is literally the ultimate judge. Regardless of a person’s world view, the next 3.5 years, the 1,000 that follow & the 100 beyond that will eliminate all doubt.
Glad to hear from you Jimmy…
bzygirl
February 12th, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Ironwolf,
I appreciate that your beliefs are strongly held. As you can see, my beliefs are strongly held. I too grew up in WCG. I looked around at the world, however, and before committing to this particular belief system, did my homework. I was a “church kid” too and most of my friends left when they grew up.
Where we differ, is that I wasn’t able to find other religious interpretations consistent with scripture. Nor did I find the belief of “no God” at all any more logical. I’m sure it’s frustrating for you, given what you feel you’ve proved, to be patient with us. We probably look like deceived people wasting our time.
It’s really not my intent to hijack your thread, start a pro-Ron Weinland debate or push any belief I personally hold. This is your site/blog. With your permission I will only answer questions.
Thank you,
Bzygirl
February 12th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
Bzygirl,
Debate is healthy. I don’t mind people putting ideas forward in a personal, non-preachy way even when they conflict with my own. So you are welcome to answer peoples’ questions about Weinland here from your own perspective. You are also welcome to your religious beliefs in general— I have no vendetta against them as such. It is your falsifiable claims in which I am interested.
February 12th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Thank you Ironwolf. I will keep my replies within your guidelines. I am not fond of the soap box either.
bzygirl
February 12th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Great banter. What I am NOT trying to do is preach or attack Bzygirl, however, if you can answer a couple of things for me, I will try to find some way to believe Ron Weinland.
The first is this: The book of Romans talks MUCH about how Jews and Gentiles are supposed to act toward salvation. Paul is very clear about the fact that just keeping the law does not make anyone saved. In fact, he says it’s completely acceptable for those who may not even heard of the law (Gentiles== not Jews, for whom the law was meant) to be saved by grace and faith in Christ. Now, I am not arguing, however, when I read that, it totally contradicts what Ron Weinland teaches.
According to HWA and Ron Weinland, God offers “salvation” and “calls” only those who faithfully keep his law. I have heard RW say in his sermons that God “cannot work with anyone” that is not keeping the Sabbath and the Jewish festivals. HWA also taught that. Now what that means (Ron Weinland’s teachings) is we, God’s children can only be saved based on a HUMAN standard. I say human because I have heard RW say that people have to grow while they keep the law for a certain period of time… until a elder or he, himself deems them worthy of baptism, which then according what HWA and now RW teach.
I can’t find anything in scripture that supports that, without staying in the Old Testament, where God commanded the Jews to be faithful to the law, in order to kepp the promise of the Messiah fresh in their minds. To me, (not my religious upbringing) the entire Old Testament is about this very thing.
I have heard RW preach from the New Testament, however, I have never heard him spend much time on “believing on the name of Jesus Christ, which saves one by grace and faith in the Son.” To me, Ron Weinland only brushes over this, or explain it in what his version on what the Greek and Hebrew texts actually say. Ron Weinland SEEMS to be very quick to say that EVERYONE outside the COG-PKG misinterprets the scriptures.
Why is Ron Weinland so quick to say that everyone outside his church can’t interpret the Bible and Guestion 2. What actual evidence does Ron Weinland have that his church is THE ONLY church God is working with?
February 12th, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Hi, I am new to this thread. I have been reading everyone’s comments. I have only read RW’s book “2008 God’s Last Prophet”. I am very sceptical of his views also. I grew up Catholic but fell away from my Catholic backround because as I became an adult, I started questioning Catholic Doctrine. I can understand RW’s points about the Catholic Church but that is the only thing in his book that I can really agree with him on. I now am searching for a church for me and my family to join but want to find the right one in which I can get right with God. I pray daily for guidance and that the truth with be revealed to me. Some of the questions that I have about RW and his theories are these if someone can please answer them.
1. He claims that after death we do not enter Heaven….Then why does Jesus tell the thief whom he was being crusified with that where He was going that the thief would be going also, that they would be in paradise…( forgive me for not knowing the exact word’s of Jesus, I should be reading my bible more often)? Also doesn’t the bible claim that Mary, Jesus’ mother is in Heaven and that she didn’t die a physical death or is that what the Catholic Church teaches, I can’t remember???
2. RW’s book claims that those alive here on Earth when Jesus returns will be kept here on Earth to finished being prepped for Heaven, when the bible clearly states that those alive when Jesus returns (ALL who are saved through the blood of Jesus) will be caught up in the air with him to remain with him forever and ever…..why would we be caught up in the air if we were to remain on here on earth?
3. The bible states that ALL who come to Christ and repent of their sins ARE SAVED! RW’s book makes it sound as if Christ picks and chooses who goes to Heaven and who doesn’t ( the 144,000) His book makes you feel like we are all doomed and that there is no hope for mankind, only death and destruction for even us believers and He clearly states in the bible that His people are not appointed to wrath but mercy and forgiveness. Does his book make anyone else feel this way?
Just some points to ponder on if anyone has the answers
February 12th, 2008 at 11:42 pm
Hi again Jimmyhags,
If I understand your questions correctly, you are asking (1) Why RW teaches that the law is required for salvation. (2) Why one must keep that law to receive baptism & the Holy Spirit. (3) Why there is no preaching about “believing on the name of Jesus”. The short answers are: (1) The bible states if love God you will keep His commandments. (2) God gives His holy spirit to those who obey Him and is the author of eternal salvation to all to obey him. (Scriptures are NT) (3) We believe in preaching the message Christ preached (the gospel of the Kingdom of God), which was not a message about Himself, but about the father & government that would come to this earth when JC returns a second time.
If you have interest in pursuing the specifics of these topics, HWA wrote booklets/articles on them. (Just What is Salvation? What Kind of Faith Is Required for Salvation? & What is the True Gospel?).
If you need help locating them, email me at bzygirl40@yahoo.com. In keeping with the forum rules against tangents, scripture quoting and the like, I will keep this simple.
HTHs,
bzygirl
February 12th, 2008 at 11:47 pm
Miss B,
You might be interested in reading the booklet by HWA entitled: What is the Reward of the Saved?
Bzygirl
February 13th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Also, just thought of…..RW’s book claims that as mankind or humans we are to become “Godlike”(being like God) and that that is what God has intended for us all along since the beginning of time starting with our first parents Adam and Eve. Is this really his intention for us at all? Isn’t that Satan’s lie? That’s what got Adam and Eve and all of mankind into the trouble that we are in in the first place? Satan told them to eat from the tree of life and knowledge (which God forbid them to do) and that they WOULD BECOME like God. God forbid them and their sin and our sin is death.
February 13th, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Miss B,
The lie was “you shall not surely die.” Satan convinced Eve that she could disobey God and still live. (The wages of sin is death. But the gift of God is eternal life) As always, Satan ropes people in with 1/2 truths. God’s plan was for humans to be in the “God family” (Elohim) but there is a process of development toward that end. No one is going to be exactly like God, Himself. Nor like JC. They are each unique.
As for the modern religious belief that people become angels after death…you cannot find that in your bible.
bzygirl
February 13th, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Bzygirl,
Again, great coversation. No, there is nothing about becoming angels. That is not a Biblical thing. Angels are created beings. They were created as angels. Humans were created as humans. And all angels are male.
Getting back to my questions: I have read miles of of text by HWA, including many pamphets, articles, books and booklets. What I can’t grasp is HWA’s teachings on salvation having to do with keeping the law.
Now, to me– again I am not preaching– the Bible says everything that HWA taught. However, what doesn’t make sense is how the Bible says WHAT the Old Testament law WAS and FOR WHOM it was meant. What I read is that the OT law was meant for the Jews. Not that non-Jews can murder, steal or not follow the ten commandments. And to me, God was very clear as to WHY he gave the laws in the first place. Also, from what I read (not what was taught to me), God wanted to Israel to stay faithful to Him because he said the Jews were his chosen people and he would make them the foundation for many nations. This was the first promise. The only thing that the Jews were to do is is have faith and keep the laws and God would do this for them. The second promise was also the coming of the Messiah.
Now– also what I read is that when Jesus came, he came as a Jew. He preached to priests that were “keeping the Law of Moses” and were “righteous” in the eyes of man because of this. Now, everyone knows what Jesus said to them. In a sense, Jesus told them that although they were keeping the laws, they were not righteous. This of course perplexed them. From what I read, it perplexed them because after all, they were Jews and were God’s chosen people and were keeping the law of Moses. How dare this Jew from Nazareth no less, come and tell them them they were not righteous? I might be missing something, but Jesus stressed many times that a sinful action starts in the heart. So what that means, to me is just what JC said about for example adultery– and that is if a man has lustful thoughts about a woman, he already has comitted adultery with her in his heart. Also, being very angry at someone and feeling like punching them in the face, is the same, according to Jesus, as actually doing it. Christ preached while he was here to have a heart that will bear good fruit. He made it very easy to see that someone can keep the law and still have a heart that bears bad fruit.
Again,maybe I am missing something– please show me if I am– But to me, Jesus Christ fulfilled the law and in a sense became the key to following it for his church… EX: We should not murder. We should not steal. Those are part of the ten commandents. Now, Jesus Christ said “keep my commandments if you love me.” The pharisees asked him, “What commandments?” Jesus then gave him the biggest ones of all and that is : “Love God with all your heart and love each other.” Now what I take from that is this: Jesus said to love each other and his Holy Spirit will help me do that. Why, would I steal and kill if I was under the direction of the Spirit?
Two more and I will keep these as brief as possible:
HWA and RW say that God will give someone the spirit only if they keep God’s law and that starts with the Sabbath. I don’t read that anywhere in the Bible. BUT RW and HWA have used John 6:44
: “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” That verse, to me, does not mean that we come to the FATHER ONLY for salvation. What it means is that MAN, if left to his own human understanding and himself WILL NOT seek Jesus. He needs God to draw him. That goes without saying in my opinion. I wouldn’t seek ANYING about God, especially his Son, without is drawing. To me, God knows when people are ready to actually listen. And when people finally are, they realize that God “draws” people every day.
But I have heard HWA and RW say that God will not “draw” anyone that isn’t keeping the Sabbath. Again, I READ and again, maybe I am wrong— I am not preaching– but Paul taught that the Law of Moses, including the Sabbath had come to and end. I can’t get past Co 2:16-16 and Ga 5:1-4, where it clearly says that the law of circumcision and the Sabbath should not be bound on others, including Gentiles. (this is because– from what I READ, of the New Covenant of the Holy Spirit)
I am not trying to say that my above post is THE TRUTH. I am just saying it’s what I read in the Bible. Please correct me if I am wrong.
February 13th, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Jimmyhags,
I’d like to ask you something…and please take this as a nice & sincere question.
Are you sincerely interested in what HWA taught? Is it really your deepest desire to know what the bible says on these subjects so that you can do whatever would please God?
Forgive me for the question. It’s just that I’ve read the entire three parts of this thread now and some of your earlier posts cause me question if you are sincere or wanting to hold your own opinion no matter what? I have had experiences, in life, not just religion, where a person can have the answer staring at them and still refuse to acknowledge it.
If you are genuine, I’d be more than happy to answer you. There are answers. It’s just that truth seekers, scripturally, must realize that truth should be sought to change the self…not others. Without that primary focus, truth will be difficult to find because internally you will always be arguing from your presuppositions and your mind won’t really be open.
In some senses, Ironwolf is correct that the bible is something like a house of mirrors and it depends on how you look at something, as to what you think it says. God actually made it that way. It discerns the thoughts and intents of the heart. There is only one way to arrive at the actual truth of the bible - honesty & help from God. That’s why it takes God’s involvement in your quest. You can’t see the right “mirror” without help. Otherwise everything is going to look really “tall” “squat” “warped”, if that makes sense.
I would like to also know from Ironwolf if he would prefer my response to go offline - between your email and mine or a response can be posted here.
I apologize in advance that it might be a day or two before I can get back to you. I’ve had a long week and need to catch up on some things. But I will reply as soon as possible.
Thanks,
bzygirl
February 13th, 2008 at 4:15 pm
Bzygirl,
To the extent that the conversation begins drifting away from Ron Weinland in particular and more towards how to determine the relative truth values of one set of scripturally consistent Christian claims from a conflicting set of scripturally consistent Christian claims (i.e., which mirror in the fun house is the “right” one), then yes, you should take it into e-mail. If you want to have that conversation with Jimmyhags, then come back here and state the conclusions you’ve reached and how they relate to Weinland, then that would certainly be relevant. Watching Christians argue with each other is something I’m no stranger to, but this isn’t the best place for resolving it all.
February 13th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
I am very interested in how Ron Weinland and HWA’s view of how to saved are true. Here’s why:
My personal beliefs aside.
Ronald Weinland CLAIMS to be one of the two end time witnesses and a prophet that says that by April 2008, the US will begin to fall, there won’t be a president in office in 2009 and that almost the entire population of the US will die.
Now…. here’s what I would like for someone to tell me: RW says the only “proof” are his books and the events that are going to take place.
Here is where the sticking point is for me: Herbert Armstrong has been exposed as being a false prophet by MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of people. That’s not my opinion, that’s what I have found. And Ron Weinland’s teachings are COMPLETELY in line with HWAs. So the question is: Why would I believe Ronald Weinland’s version of the end-time events, when he himself is simply a carbon copy of Herbert W. Armstrong?
I hope that is a fair question. I meant no harm by it. I just know that HWA made over 200 predictions as a self proclaimed prophet of God and the end time Elijah that simply didn’t come true… In fact, most of them were not even close to being accurate.
You can email me if you want to, however, I just want everyone to know that every thread I post is, in fact, about Ronald Weinland and why he should be believed. I mean there were millions of people that believed HWA would not die before Christ returned because he was Elijah and he died in 1986. How is Ronald Weinland any different?
February 13th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
Jimmyhags,
You have mentioned that the sabbath and the annual Holy Days (Jewish festivals) have been done away. Explain why God would still enforce these annual Holy Days after Christ returns and the Millennial period starts. Do these annual holy days and the sabbath have meaning to God? Does God provide instruction through the observance of the annual Holy Days and the weekly Sabbath? Are these days important to God? Does he require obedience to the observance of these days? Read Zechariah 14:16-18
. The observance of the Feast of Tabernacles is a requirement and God will expect everyone to participate and observe these days. He also give consequences for our misbehavior if we do not observe this annual Holy Day. It looks like God expects obedience.
February 13th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
Hey all — My name is Bec im from Sydney Australia..
I have been reading this thread for a week or so now WOW it sure is growing. I am in the middle of some research on Ronald Weinland at the momet and thought I would jump right into this discussion if i may.
My intension isn’t to discredit anyone?s beliefs here. But for me, the more i study Weinland the more i see a sheep dressed up in wolves clothing. Ronald Weinland seems to be preaching the Gospel of “I am God’s Prophet” and not the Gospel of Christ. He seems to be more focused on proving that he is God’s prophet than he is on crying out for people to get on their knees, cry out to God for mercy through Christ and to repent. I have many thing’s i can share with you all about Weinland but the one true thing that sticks out to me the most about him being a false prophet is the fact he teachers that Jesus has never eternally existed. He teachers that Jesus isn’t God and has never been. Now for me this is all the evidence i need to know his not to be trusted.
The Bible makes it VERY clear on this major piece of doctrine.
John 1:1
- In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
- And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.
John 1:14
Another thing Weinland believes Speaking in tongues (a gift of the Spirit) is demonic. By reading the Bible, we know for a fact that speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit, By reading the Bible, we know for a fact that speaking in tongues is a gift of the Holy Spirit it began with the early Christians at Pentecost. The fact that Ronald Weinland calls the Holy Spirit’s gift of speaking in tongues demonic is proof that what he teaches is not 100% pure to the Word of God.
Ronald Weinland may teach “some” truth, and said in a way that many people will want to believe him, but some of what he tells you is clearly false, and if you’ve been reading your Bible you’re be able to recognize these false teachers for who they are and not be led away.
Thanks for having me on board
Bec
February 13th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
[…] http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/459 The current comments thread from the above. […]
February 13th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Doug,
If you really look at it, GOD isn’t enforcing anything today. MAN is. And Zechariah 14:16-18
, huh. OK. Old Testament again. The Zechariah prophecies were written about 550 years before the birth of Christ and the book of Zecharia was written again to: JEWS of the time.
And it sounds like you may be a HWA follower– and that’s ok. I am not here to slam you, but have you ever heard of The Feast of Nations? That’s what you are referring to here. The one Feast that will celebreate the new age on earth.. God’s new 1000 year reign.
What that part of the book is talking about is THOSE WHO PARTAKE IN THE FEAST. Those who don’t are going to be the ones that fought against Jerusalem (non-believers in Christ) and God is going to DEAL with those “nations”.
And this Feast or Feasts here are what is going to turn the temple and the world for that matter from a money-making temple to the true temple of God.
There’s nothhing in Vs 14-16 that says anything about anyone that HASN’T been keeping the feasts or OT holy days. It says that those who don’t participate in the great feast at that time (non believers of Crhist) will be punished.
I know what the book says. And I never said anything has been “done away with.”
February 13th, 2008 at 5:50 pm
Hi Robert,
Wow, three pages, this is great! I hope we can get the word out and yes, I hope we’re both wrong when it comes to dire predictions for Weinland’s sheeple. You’re probably right about the bankruptcies that will be happening.
I do have some questions, though, for the Weinland follower(s)/handler(s) who have popped up here; if Johnny Harrell is not the same JH who founded the CPDL, then who is he? Can you provide a link to verifiable biographical data on your new US/Canada evangelist?
My next question follows the same lines, for Wayne Matthews. Who is he, where did he come from, and is he/was he affiliated in any way with Destiny Church Nelson in New Zealand?
My third and final question: If the 144,000 have already been sealed, why will the church be conducting baptisms in West Springfield, Massachussetts this coming weekend?
February 13th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Sorry, the website fouled up in the posting.
http://weinlandwatch.wordpress.com
February 13th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Weinland Watch:
It’s a coincidence that Johnny Harrell, the new US evangelist, happens to have the same name as the leader of the CPDL. He lives in the U.S, in a normal house (not a compound), has a normal 9-5 job, and the like. He in no way fits into any conspiracy theory.
Same goes for Wayne Matthews. He’s not affiliated with Destiny Church in New Zealand. He’s an Australian.
Both men have been CoG members for many years.
The sealing of the 144k has nothing to do with new baptisms. The 144k come from every age of man over 6k years and make up the government of God when JC returns. Those who are newer, will live under that government until they die and are resurrected into the family of God in their time.
bzygirl
February 13th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
The 144,000 (whether or not they are sealed as RW says now) are leaders (some say church some say government… probably both) that Christ will return with when he comes back.
Now RW and HWA will tell you that’s ALL THAT’S COMING. I tend to disagree on that. I won’t get into MY EXACT BELIEFS because I dont’ have the time…. But Revelation 7
1-8 explains who the 144,000 are. HWA has always taught that the GREAT MULTITUDES described in chapter 8 are the same 144,000 talked about in Chapter 7. It’s clear that the 144,000 are going to return with a HUGE number of saints (Christ followers)….. these are the Christians that have died since Jesus ascended to Heaven. (I am going to be disagreed with on this, but that’s fine. Notice I have never mentioned the word “rapture.”)
February 13th, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Jimmyhag,
During the Millennial period, Zechariah 14:16-18
, states that this is not a one time “feast celebration”, but all must go up from year to year. This annual Holy Day (Feast of Tabernacles) continues from year to year. I don’t understand why you are equating all of this information contained in the old testament with “jews.” These books still contain information about prophecy that has not yet come to pass. These prophecies are not only for “Jew,” but for all of mankind. This verse needs further explanation. Indeed, there is a punishment for those who do not observe this annual Holy Day. Again, why would God provide punishment for disobedience, if he did not want to teach mankind a lesson regarding the meaning of the “Feast of Tabernacles?” Does this day mean something to God? If this annual Holy Day was meaningless, why would God esteem it so highly and provide punishment for disobedience?
February 13th, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Doug,
You’re right. The Old Testament has prophecy that wasn’t fulfilled at the time of its writing. There is a great deal said about the Millennial period in the Old Testament. This is what Ron is quoting as well as the new Testament in Matthew & Revelation. As you said, it makes no sense for God to require Feast observance for approx. 4,000 years, take a 2,000 year hiatus and suddenly require it again in the Millennium. Zechariah is very specifically talking about that time period. JC didn’t do away with the Holy Days. The Apostles kept the Holy Days, after the death of JC, and not just in Israel, also in Gentile countries. The church is the Israel of God per the NT.
How do you like being called a “handler”…? I happened upon this site almost by accident. You?
bzygirl
February 13th, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Did God say he was going to require the Holy Days in the new millenium? Did I say that?
And to say the Apostles kept the Holy Days after the death of Christ it true, they did. But they were no longer BOUND to do so. Just as many RW and HWA follwers are mis quoting what’s in Zecharia. It’s not what I read, sorry.
I have a question: What are church members of Ron Weinland doing with their life savings, mortgage payments, etc? Are they just walking away from financial responsibilities? Just curious, because because of HWA’s prediction, THOUSANDS of people went broke because they thought the end was near and they either walked away from everything or gave it all to the church. I did here RW say that by 2008, 401k accounts, the dollar and anything of value as far as the American dollar will be worthless. To me, if I believed RW, I’d just walk away from it all–stop paying mortgage, car, give all my money to the church so they can have it while it was still valuable, because afterall, I am probably going to die anyway.
I am just wondering. That’s been really puzzling me as of late.
February 13th, 2008 at 11:39 pm
I don’t think Weinland’s John Harrell is the same as the guy from CPDL, otherwise he’s going to have a hard time evangelizing from prison:
http://media-newswire.com/release_1059528.html
If the Wayne Matthews thing isn’t true, it’s still a bit of an odd coincidence that two of Weinland’s main guys have the namesakes of what some would call christian extremists (and that’s in a negative connotation, if anybody is wondering) with a history of racism.
February 14th, 2008 at 6:12 am
I’ve been sifting through search results trying to track down Johnny Harrell and the CPDL; I hadn’t run across that one (yet). From the descriptions of Harrell’s activities, it sounds very close to the same activities Church of God leaders are typically known for.
Freedom of religious expression is permitted even if you’re in prison, but given the charges are church-related, I don’t know. Harrell’s lawyers might use the “I’ve converted to another church” spin on it, and let him proceed with Weinland’s sect. All you need these days is a laptop with a Net connection to make a “sermon”, which means Harrell can still proselytize from prison. (I’m sure he will spin it, no matter which church he’s with, as being some kind of martyrdom.)
You’re right it’s an odd coincidence Weinland’s new evangelists should have those names, but it’s interesting to note that the CoG-PKG isn’t releasing any information on the new evangelists, they just expect the sheeple to shut up and put up with their new overlords.
To the PKG apologist(s): Just because Matthews is Australian, doesn’t mean he’s never worked at a church in New Zealand. Have you been told anything about his background by anyone other than the leaders of the church? Did he bring an influx of teenagers and young adults with him when he came into the church? (That’s the demographic the DCN pastor with the same name was working with, before his profile was removed from the DCN site.)
According to the sermons that have been posted (assuming none of them have been pulled, since Ronnie states in his Feb 7 blog he’ll be covering his tracks and deleting postings from the site), both Harrell and Matthews have been with the organization for at least a couple of years. This is according to the dates listed on the sermons. Which might also be bogus.
The keen-eyed will also note from bzygirl’s last sentence that BI is, indeed, unfortunately alive and well in the PKG. Which makes Weinland’s affiliations with violent christian identity groups almost inevitable, given that WCG was the precursor to every Aryan Nation “church” that’s sprung up since, and Rotten Ronnie is positing the fall of the American government, making it a logical conclusion to jump to, that they’re going to need the survivalists onboard when it all comes down (or doesn’t).
To the poster who questioned if the sheeple know where their money is going, the answer is an unequivocal no, regardless of which splinter you’re with. They all use the same HWA line, “you don’t question where God’s leadership spends your money” altho they don’t word it quite like that.
February 14th, 2008 at 6:40 am
Seriously how hard is it to descern that this Ron guy is a false prophet?
)”
Check his book against scripture that’d be a good start…
Mid P16:
“It is now with boldness, confidence and great clarity that I give to you what God has given me. I am to announce, through God’s direct revelation, that I am one of those two witnesses. The other witness will be revealed to the world during the time of the great tribulation—within the final three and one-half years of man’s era. During that period of time, we will, together, completely fulfill all that God has given us to witness to this whole earth. Then, at the end, we will die in the streets of Jerusalem; and finally, exactly three and one-half days later, we will be resurrected (Revelation 11
…Or if he was to be completely honest with us: “It is now with boldness, confidence and one hand on the ouija board…”
but when you couple that with Bottom P14, Top P15:
)’ “
God gives more symbolism that reflects the importance of His two witnesses. Notice what “God says: ‘And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth [symbolic of humility]. These are the two olive trees, and the two lamp stands standing [Gk.—set, established] before [Gk.—in the presence of] the God of the earth. (Revelation 11:3-4
You gotta wonder does he wear anything OTHER than Armani’s best?
Also, if he IS one of the two witnesses, (apart from the fact that if he were, we shouldn’t be here anymore…plus a COUPLE of other inconsistencies) why is his purpose so ambiguous and vague? Why isn’t he preaching the cross like a mad thing?…since that is what I expect the real witnesses would be doing?
I’ll bet the other witness is his brother…he’s already promised the position to him. He just has to “put in a good word upstairs” for him first to get ”his god’s” approval.
Revelation 11:6
says of the two witnesses “These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy”.
It snowed in Israel on January 30th, and today there is 5.4mm of rainfall in Jerusalem - check out http://weather.ie.msn.com/weather_world.aspx
In conclusion RW should be trembling in his boots as he mocks God.
Deu 18:20
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
February 14th, 2008 at 7:29 am
Weinland Watch,
While I can admire your imaginative powers, you might want to check your sources and facts. The best source would be the people you are maligning. I gather that you do not know them since your information is speculative. I do, however, know them.
J.Harrell & W. Matthews have a long history with WCG (since at least the 80s) and from there, its splinters. Neither of them have ever belonged to the organizations you mentioned. Johnny has been with PKG for many years now. W. Matthews came from the United Church of God splinter (which originated back in 1995). Sorry, they are not the guys you found on the internet. The “sheeple” as you call them, have no need of released information since they talk to them both face-to-face. We don’t mind being called “sheep” since JC called his followers sheep. I suppose that was meant to rile?
Ron Weinland’s sermons are all dated (we hear them in real time and would know of a deletion or change.) None have been removed from the main PKG website. The only website where removals will or have been made refer to his personal site http://www.ronaldweinland.com where he keeps a blog. Blog space is limited.
For you to state that the WCG is the precursor to every Aryan Nation Church that has sprung up calls into question your history skills. British Israelism was not unique to HWA. I have a book on my shelf entitled, “Judah’s Sceptre & Joseph’s Birthright” by J. Allen which was written in the early 20th century. It roughly states the same information as US & Britain in Prophecy written by HWA. It differs some. I have never met an HWA detractor that didn’t know this. They even found the same book in HWA’s archives when he died. The bible has shown, prophetically, many cultures & nations were to rise & fall – Persia, Medo Persian, Roman….The US, Britain, Australia, NZ, etc. are judged by God early because of the blessings they were given. Aryanism? That God is going to punish modern Israel first? Doesn’t sound like God is showing too much favoritism. You infer that HWA was, himself, a racist or Aryan. Again your history skills are called into question. HWA had a very close working relationship with members of the Israeli gov’t when he was alive and visited leaders of many nations including Japan whom he called, “My Japanese sons.”
You can take exception to the term, “Israel of God” but I didn’t coin it. The Apostle Paul did in Gal. 6:16
. He was the apostle to the gentiles and was referring to gentiles in the church.
bzygirl
February 14th, 2008 at 7:42 am
I agree with you Ironwolf…let’s get back to the purpose of your blog…determining whether Ron Weinland is a false prophet. That was my purpose originally, in posting. I wanted to make a distinction between what Ron is saying and what he is not saying about timing of events. His accuracy, of course, will determine his prophethood.
Feb 2nd was misunderstood by some who were new to the church. I saw some things on the web that weren’t correct. Even people outside the church wrote to RW asking, “What will happen in the world on Feb. 2nd?” He stated, long before Feb. 2nd that the significance of the date was not in world events, but about the church. Feb 2nd marked the prophetic time sequence of 1335 mentioned in Daniel & the sealing of the 144k.
The next time sequence yet ahead is the 1290 (also in Daniel.) If I did my math correctly, that occurs on March 18th. That marks the time of the Abomination of Desolation coming to a close for the scattered church and remnant will begin to awaken & continue over the next 3.5 years. This amounts to a bit over 3k people who were baptized in the church prior to 1994. Other people who come into the church are new, not a part of the prophetic remnant but still make up the Church of God. There’s no distinction of class..it’s just God’s explantion of what happened to all the people who experienced the apostasy in 1994.
1290 also marks the opening of the 7th seal. The silence in heaven for a half an hour, mentioned in Revelation, Ron has said is one month to us. While the thunders will be growing more active between now and then, nothing of significance can happen until April 17th (my calculation).
It’s interesting to note that the pope will be in the US at that time - until April 20th I believe. So the thing that happens on the 17th may be more on a religious front initially.
We still expect to see the first trumpet blast of revelation by September.
bzygirl
February 14th, 2008 at 8:11 am
Leigh De Paor,
The job of the 2 witnesses doesn’t officially begin until sometime around April 13th. The math to reach that date is: Return of JC - Sep. 29th, 2011 (feast of trumpets). The start of a biblical day is the evening before - so evening of Sep. 28th. The 2 wit. die 3.5 days prior to that date - sometime in the morning of Sept. 25th. Their job lasts 1260 days. Back up from Sept. 25th you reach April 13th. There is a about a 4 day overlap between their job starting & the time period (after the 30 days since the opening of the 7th seal) when things can begin.
I hear a lot of people saying Ron is false because he hasn’t breathed fire, called down plagues and the like. Some of those things are symbolic. Sackcloth is about humility before God. Breathing fire is also spiritual. It’s not a pyro-technic show. They will shut heaven so that there is no rain, etc. Many of the things they do are literal and physical.
HTHs
bzygirl
February 14th, 2008 at 8:35 am
Bzygrl, I was going to write a response to your initial post (WRT to John Harrell and Wayne Matthews and BI) but I’m glad now that I didn’t.
You are clearly taking the role of an apologist, and to try and point out to you that there are a lot of CI churches that hold to the BI doctrine (and yes have held to it since the 1780s I am aware of that), but that wasn’t my point, would be fruitless since you clearly don’t want to listen, and are instead trying to attack me from a basis on which you have very little standing.
You still have not pointed me to verifiable biographical information on either of these two evangelists being former members of UCG/a member of PKG for years. Matthews’ connection to UCG can surely be proven quickly, and rest assured that I will be researching that.
I am disappointed to see that the membership is also touting the day before Passover as a seminal date in the prediction spiral. This convinces me, more than ever, there is the potential for something bad happen to those caught up in the CoG-PKG cult, on or around Passover.
As I have stated repeatedly, I want to be proven wrong. I have little desire to see PKG members bilked and bankrupted by Weinland, but that’s their (your) free choice to give your money away.
That the general membership might be so brainwashed as to harm themselves or others upon orders from Weinland, is an entirely different matter altogether, and something I am certain everyone wishes to avoid (or avert).
February 14th, 2008 at 9:07 am
Weinland Watch,
What you have proven is that there is no way for anyone to answer you without essentially being wrong. If explanations are given for belief, one is a called “sheeple” or an “apologist.” If one remains mute, then we have no response because your argument is undeniable. See the catch-22?
The reality is that people are going to believe what they want to believe. That’s been my point all along. That is everyone’s human right. As are their opinions.
There is no biography to give out to people about Johnny Harrell & Wayne Matthews precisely because — they are no one in this world. Keep searching. You won’t find them. They have no significance to anyone in this world except those who know them in a yet small Church of God.
bzygirl
February 14th, 2008 at 9:12 am
FIRST OF ALL– It’s funny. HWA “WORKS” as they have been called were nothing more than repackaged writings of other people. And ANYONE who believes in British-American Israealism REALLY needs consider going to back to shcool.
February 14th, 2008 at 9:24 am
I really have to agree with Weinland watch. Ron Weinland is so far off on when some of these things will occur (some of what he predicts could happen). But what Ron has done is THE SAME as HWA did. HWA was follower of world events. HWA pegged everyone from Hitler to the Mussilini as the Anti-Christ, predicted just about every nation on earth to INVADE THE UNITED STATES…. Now Weinland, who is OBVIOUSLY watching the news is doing the same thing. Like I said, this is no different that if YOU OR I were to watch the news and try to place prophetic correlation on what’s happening in the world. Are we in the end-times? I don’t know. Could we be? Sure. Christ said we’d see wars and rumors of wars….. Hmmmmmmmm.. there have been wars and rumors of wars, famine, disease, etc.. for 2,000 years. I believe Christ is coming back. There’s no doubt about it. But I won’t run for the hills because some former cult follower of Herbert Armstrong says so, especially when Ron Weinland is pretty much re-puking that HWA tried to shake things up with— all of which never came to pass.
Weinland Watch hit the nail on the head—- I sure hope the Weinland follwers don’t do anything crazy. But they are choosing this.
February 14th, 2008 at 9:33 am
There are just too many things about Weinland that lead me to believe he is false. Way too many things to try and list all of them or recall everything i’ve heard over the past couple of years, but here are a few. In late 2006, early 2007 he said that he had been asking God that the 7 thunders begin sounding loudly in January 2007. When that didn’t happen, he writes it off to him being too eager and that it wasn’t time yet. His sermons are so filled with “isn’t that amazing” and so much double talk that there is very little substance. Most time during sermons is spent covering his pamplets and book and not using scripture. He answers that by saying that his writings come directly from God, so they are the same as the bible. He says that so many new members are coming into his church because God is working with people and calling people like never before. Well duh, if I wrote a book and pumped thousands of dollars a day into advertising and sent out free books to everyone in the world that wanted one, I can imagine you’d get a conciderable following too. That isn’t God doing it, its just advertising and confused people out there looking for answers. I’ll let this be my last statement on this post, but he claims the other endtime witness is his wife. He says that is not to be revealed until the end, but I used to attend his church and he let the cat out of the bag early, and you could tell later on that he regretted doing it. I might not be as knowledgable as some on this forum regarding scripture, but I know this isn’t real.
February 14th, 2008 at 9:37 am
The job of the 2 witnesses doesn’t officially begin until sometime around April 13th. The math to reach that date is: Return of JC - Sep. 29th, 2011 (feast of trumpets). The start of a biblical day is the evening before - so evening of Sep. 28th. The 2 wit. die 3.5 days prior to that date - sometime in the morning of Sept. 25th. Their job lasts 1260 days. Back up from Sept. 25th you reach April 13th. There is a about a 4 day overlap between their job starting & the time period (after the 30 days since the opening of the 7th seal) when things can begin.
I hear a lot of people saying Ron is false because he hasn’t breathed fire, called down plagues and the like. Some of those things are symbolic. Sackcloth is about humility before God. Breathing fire is also spiritual. It’s not a pyro-technic show. They will shut heaven so that there is no rain, etc. Many of the things they do are literal and physical.
Question: Do Ron Weinland’s figures align with yours? Just a question.
February 14th, 2008 at 9:38 am
From what I have heard, the other witness is Mrs.Weinland. Correct?
February 14th, 2008 at 9:44 am
There are just too many things about Weinland that lead me to believe he is false. Way too many things to try and list all of them or recall everything i’ve heard over the past couple of years, but here are a few. In late 2006, early 2007 he said that he had been asking God that the 7 thunders begin sounding loudly in January 2007. When that didn’t happen, he writes it off to him being too eager and that it wasn’t time yet. His sermons are so filled with “isn’t that amazing” and so much double talk that there is very little substance. Most time during sermons is spent covering his pamplets and book and not using scripture. He answers that by saying that his writings come directly from God, so they are the same as the bible. He says that so many new members are coming into his church because God is working with people and calling people like never before. Well duh, if I wrote a book and pumped thousands of dollars a day into advertising and sent out free books to everyone in the world that wanted one, I can imagine you’d get a conciderable following too. That isn’t God doing it, its just advertising and confused people out there looking for answers. I’ll let this be my last statement on this post, but he claims the other endtime witness is his wife. He says that is not to be revealed until the end, but I used to attend his church and he let the cat out of the bag early, and you could tell later on that he regretted doing it. I might not be as knowledgable as some on this forum regarding scripture, but I know this isn’t real.
Let me guess.. you were “disfellowshipped?” RW is as false as the bronze bust of Abe Lincoln that sits on my desk.
February 14th, 2008 at 9:44 am
I’m sure she won’t confirm or deny that. Its a secret. shhhhh
February 14th, 2008 at 9:45 am
Jimmyhags,
The information about the 1335 & 1290 come directly from Ron’s last few sermons.
The calculations - not directly. The date of JC’s return. Yes. From Ron. The 3.5 days is in the bible…pretty clear…3.5 days before JC return the 2 wit die (he has said this). The 1260 days of the 2 wit….also clear in scripture (he has said this too). You back up 1263.5 days from 9/29/11…you get April 13th/14th depending on if you look at the daytime or nighttime portion of the day. What I mean by not directly is that you won’t find all this one place - in one sermon - at least not yet. It’s from several.
The information about the physical/spiritual understanding of the job - yes RW says that. There are literal things the 2 witnesses will do - physically -but their job is primarily a spiritual one.
bzygirl
February 14th, 2008 at 9:50 am
No. I just wised up and left. I finally realized I was in a cult. RW tells you things that make you feel important. Like, this group is the only one that understands, and one day when everyone else comes to repentance that church members now will be teachers. That people in the world tomorrow will look at you in aww because you were in the church before the great tribulation. I just got so frustrated listening to how turning your back on Weinland is turning your back on God, and how you could have all this truth staring you in the face and deny…thus denying God. I imagine that is a tactic that a lot of cults use.
February 14th, 2008 at 9:50 am
Look, I have nothing to hide from all of you. There are no secrets. Ron knows who the other witness is and will tell everyone when their job starts. We have our ideas in the CoG..but what’s the point of speculation?
Jimmyhags, what if it was his wife, for the sake of argument? Is it that she’s a woman (the scripture about the 2 witnesses is gender neutral) or is it that she’s his wife so she must be as brain-washed as he is? I get the sense that no matter who the 2nd witness is you’ll not be happy with the choice.
bzygirl
February 14th, 2008 at 10:03 am
I don’t care if BI is right or wrong I don’t care who the second witless is and I don’t even care if Weinland is a false prophet or the second coming himself.
What I care about is the people who BELIEVE Weinland who, for all intents and purposes, appears to believe HIMSELF. This is not a good combination.
Bzygrl has not addressed these two points I made above:
“As I have stated repeatedly, I want to be proven wrong. I have little desire to see PKG members bilked and bankrupted by Weinland, but that’s their (your) free choice to give your (their) money away.”
See? I agree with you. I also stand by that. If you want to put your future and your money where Weinland’s mouth is, more power to you. If you believe him, that is your completely free and conscious choice to do so. I am not denying that.
This is the point I would like you to address bzygrl:
“That the general membership might be so brainwashed as to harm themselves or others upon orders from Weinland, is an entirely different matter altogether, and something I am certain everyone wishes to avoid (or avert).”
Which brings me to a question I would like you to answer, yes or no:
If Weinland instructed you to do something that would bring harm to yourself or others would you follow those instructions?
Yes or no?
February 14th, 2008 at 10:14 am
Another question for bzygrl then I’m done:
“1290 also marks the opening of the 7th seal. The silence in heaven for a half an hour, mentioned in Revelation, Ron has said is one month to us. While the thunders will be growing more active between now and then, nothing of significance can happen until April 17th (my calculation).”
This calculation has also been made by someone (not a believer) over at AW. The point was made that Passover is the 18th, in many splinters.
“The calculations - not directly. The date of JC’s return. Yes. From Ron. The 3.5 days is in the bible…pretty clear…3.5 days before JC return the 2 wit die (he has said this). The 1260 days of the 2 wit….also clear in scripture (he has said this too). You back up 1263.5 days from 9/29/11…you get April 13th/14th depending on if you look at the daytime or nighttime portion of the day.”
So….your own calculations don’t line up with those of your prophet. Which calculation do you believe?
February 14th, 2008 at 10:15 am
Weinland Watch
The answer is “no”…I take responsibility for my own choices, decisions and life. The reason the answer is “no” is that what I do, I do out of the power of God’s Spirit. I am not following Ron Weinland. So I guess that makes me just as deluded as he is, yes?
bzygirl
February 14th, 2008 at 10:16 am
The information about the 1335 & 1290 come directly from Ron’s last few sermons.
The calculations - not directly. The date of JC’s return. Yes. From Ron. The 3.5 days is in the bible…pretty clear…3.5 days before JC return the 2 wit die (he has said this). The 1260 days of the 2 wit….also clear in scripture (he has said this too). You back up 1263.5 days from 9/29/11…you get April 13th/14th depending on if you look at the daytime or nighttime portion of the day. What I mean by not directly is that you won’t find all this one place - in one sermon - at least not yet. It’s from several.
I know all about the roles of the two witnesses…. And I am not sure how long you have been the “Church of God,” however, these predictions have been made mathematicly many times… from different dates… HWA made these very calculations based on other events he claimed were the opening of the seals…
Question: what are you going to do if these things dont’ happen?
February 14th, 2008 at 10:18 am
I’ll listen to what he has to say, pray about it and make up my own mind. There is no thought control going on here. I heard a lot of cracked up stuff in the world, the splinters of the CoG etc. too. I left them all behind. I am not blindly committing myself to some focus that, if proven wrong, is going to lead me over some cliff.
bzygirl
February 14th, 2008 at 10:20 am
That is a good point WW. I know for a fact that many members of COG have taken out second mortgages on thier homes, liquidated their 401ks, spent money they don’t have on credit, all because they think the end is coming and money won’t be worth “toilet paper” Ron’s words. I’m not saying that the whole church is running up credit cards, but a lot of them most certainly have destroyed their financial stability and retirement. Of course Weinland doesn’t come out and directly ask you to send in all of your money or tell you to get all the equity out of your home, but you are made to understand that it’s between you and God and having a retirement plan or equity in your home is some kind of lack of faith in his prophesy. And certainly sending in money to the church over and above your tithes is looked upon favorably. Who wouldn’t want to be in the good graces of the two end time witnesses from the Bible.
February 14th, 2008 at 10:29 am
Jimmyhags,
One last post for now. I’ve got about a foot of snow to shovel to move my car out…
If these things don’t come to pass and the US is doing very well and intact (no trumpets have blown) by the end of 2008…then RW is a false prophet. Is there any other conclusion to draw?
You’ll disagree with me here, but I don’t find Ron’s theology bad - what he preaches about doctrine I find in my bible (yes the fun house mirror).
If Ron is a false prophet, he is a false prophet. Then he and I are wrong and God will have to judge accordingly. There is no secret here.
It’s going to require some patience before anyone can call him a false prophet however. His job doesn’t even really begin until April. And just so no one derives the idea that this is all “wishful thinking” on my part. I believe Ron because of what I know God has revealed to my mind. No other reason. Ron could say the sky is green..but unless I believe that…then I don’t believe the sky is green. This really isn’t about Ron. It’s about my relationship with God and what I believe, personally.
bzygirl
February 14th, 2008 at 10:30 am
One last post for now. I’ve got about a foot of snow to shovel to move my car out…
If these things don’t come to pass and the US is doing very well and intact (no trumpets have blown) by the end of 2008…then RW is a false prophet. Is there any other conclusion to draw?
You’ll disagree with me here, but I don’t find Ron’s theology bad - what he preaches about doctrine I find in my bible (yes the fun house mirror).
If Ron is a false prophet, he is a false prophet. Then he and I are wrong and God will have to judge accordingly. There is no secret here.
It’s going to require some patience before anyone can call him a false prophet however. His job doesn’t even really begin until April. And just so no one derives the idea that this is all “wishful thinking” on my part. I believe Ron because of what I know God has revealed to my mind. No other reason. Ron could say the sky is green..but unless I believe that…then I don’t believe the sky is green. This really isn’t about Ron. It’s about my relationship with God and what I believe, personally.
bzygirl
February 14th, 2008 at 10:33 am
sorry about the double post — it didn’t go through the first time…off to snow removal…
February 14th, 2008 at 10:38 am
To everyone piling on Bzygirl, she is actually right, she is not completely controlled by Weinland; she wouldn’t be participating in this discussion if she was. I take that as a good sign, let us not drive her completely away.
To Bzygirl directly, I’m glad you wouldn’t do anything to bring harm to yourself or others (I certainly hope your subconscious mind would agree with your conscious one, and “answer” your prayers with a “O hell no!”), but I fear your perspective might not reflect that of all, or even the majority of, the members in the group. Therein lies the danger.
As I said on WW, and as your remarks seem to confirm that, either way the prophecies pan out, Weinland believes that he is going to die. This means that Ronald Weinland is literally a man with nothing left to lose.
As for the finances, admiral11 is correct. In the olden days of WCG it was the same. No RRSPs, no investments, nothing of the sort. Because economy was going to collapse due to free trade, IIRC. Yeah how’s that prediction panned out huh?
February 14th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Weinland Watch,
I can understand from an outsider’s viewpoint that this can look very suspicious to people. You’d think I’d be in the minority, but I’m not. I know you don’t know these people, but I do. They aren’t any more “baked” than I am. You don’t know Ron either. I will not defend the actions of some who used to attend with us in the WCG in days gone by. I didn’t find their actions balanced or wise…either personally or religiously.
No one in PKG is advocating a “check the brain in at the door” mode of operation. In fact, it goes against everything about God’s spirit. God’s spirit is one of power, love and a sound mind. Ron’s actions can seem crazy - no one is denying that. The collective “we” haven’t lost touch with reality so that we can’t see the other side of the equation. Things like this are only crazy if they are wrong. Fair? If Ron is right (and I’ll say if for the sake of this forum) then is he crazy? Or did he just know something in advance?
Ron is nobody. He has no ability whatsoever to bring to pass a major coup on the US government, assassinate the ministry of the other COGs, any more than I do. No one in this group is willing to kill for him, trust me. I haven’t met one crazy person yet in PKG. In fact, they are the sanest people I’ve ever met.
Aside from tithes, the majority of the membership is like most of us…they have bills to pay…they dont’ have a lot of extra money lying around to send to the church. No one is going bankrupt. And Ron does have something to lose…if he’s wrong…he loses his credibility and his source of income.
Should he be proven wrong, he should be pitied (as I should myself be) because it would be error out of sincerity not malice.
There isn’t a lot of time left determine which…
I do have a question for everyone on this forum which I have corresponded….for the sake of argument…what would it take for all of you to believe him. Indulge me. I’m curious.
bzygirl
February 14th, 2008 at 10:51 am
I don’t care who the other witness is, but I find it funny. If you listen to Weinland he slips all of the time about things he’s “not supposed to tell right now.” I can see through this smokescreen.
Bzygirl– you said you have seen many untruths and you have left them behind… and that you don’t “follow” Ron Weinland and that there is no mind control going on.
I don’t want to sound like jerk, but yes, there is mind control going on. From the way a member has to go about joining the church, to the requirements of tithing, to the way Weinland gives his sermons, and his claim of being a PROPHET. I know what I am talking about. This man is attempting to gain followers of HIM, not God. He’s using God as a tool in order to get people to read his books, send his church money, etc.
Now, I HONESTLY believe that RW does believe all of this. He, himself worshipped Herbert Armstrong and he like many other splinter leaders were completely baffled when he died. So what they did was all started to wrestle with “who’s going to take over for “Mr.” Armstrong.” And it became a power struggle. Everyone was looking over their shoulders. They wanted to see who they felt WASN’T going to carry on HWA’s teachings. The only people that weren’t doing that were the CURRENT staff at WCG. To Weinland, these men, the current staff were under Satan’s control. Weinland even CLAIMS that God “took out” Joseph Tkach, Sr. According to Weinland “a bunch of lies” were spread about him and he called Tkach on the phone and according to RW, Tkach went into a rage and screamed at RW…. then a few months later Tkach became sick and died. According to Ron Weinland, “That was no accident.”
Now, you say all of his nonsense has nothing to do with a cult? Again, I am VERY FAMILIAR with how cults work and RW is amassing a tell-tale, by-the-book- cult following.
I am sorry for the brashness of this thread, but I, too, am concerned about the people that are going to be DESTROYED financially and God knows how else because of this crap.
I KNOW that RW believes that HWA will play a role in this. He won’t be the second witness– he’s dead…. but RW has made several comments about how RW
February 14th, 2008 at 11:01 am
WHAT WOULD IT TAKE FOR ME TO BELIEVE HIM?
If Ronald Weinland came to his senses and realizes that the teaches of Herbert Armstrong were completely FALSE–HWA’s charges against Christianity were insane–totally bogus, he was going to start teaching a correct, Biblical doctrine on salvation, stop judging everyone who doesn’t keep the Sabbath, then I would believe him.
He’s so far off from what the Bible even says about the end time, it’s sad. Sure RW is a good speaker, but he’s NOTHING MORE than a re-packaged, Herbert W. Armstrong, who was PROVEN to be one of the biggest religious frauds and hacks of all time.
February 14th, 2008 at 11:11 am
Jimmyhags,
“Nothing” would have sufficed. I believe you have numerous posts stating your position on HWA, the WCG, RW, et al.
bzygirl
February 14th, 2008 at 11:21 am
And Jimmy…
I know my own mind. I do what I want to do, when I want to do it and how I want to do it. No one is forcing me to do anything at gunpoint or guilt-tripping me into it. You can send the intervention team now if you must, but I’m very lucid and in control of my own life. If you keep insisting the opposite, I’m going to think you need a hearing aid.
bzygirl
February 14th, 2008 at 11:29 am
I understand where you are coming from, however, cults don’t hold people at gunpoint, or even use guilt-trip tactics. They operate on a subliminal plane that makes everyone feel like they are special and the only ones on the face of the earth that know the truth and that masses “just don’t understand” or “everyone else is blind” or “everyone else has been lied to” or “someday, the rest of the world WILL see, but it will be too late by then!.”…. That’s how cults draw people in….. They also draw people in by writing books.
I do know what I am talking about, but of course, I my college education is probably a Satanic lie, since it didn’t come from Ambassador College.
And sending in an “intervention team” is not what I am talking about.
Let me ask you one more question, Bzygirl: “What religious background did you have before your affiliation with the Church of God?”
February 14th, 2008 at 11:43 am
It paints a pretty picture, it really does. A one world government, everyone going to the same church, there is no question of what God wants and expects of you. No war, famine, or crime. Sounds ideal to me. Maybe this sounds silly, but there are what, close to 9 billion people on this planet today. The majority of which have never heard of Armstrong, let alone Weinland. I understand Weinland thinks all of the “scattered” people that were once part of WCG have a veil over their eyes and are kept in the darkness because of Satan and that soon the veil will be lifted and they’ll realize what they’ve done. There are just too many things that don’t add up. I was very close to people growing up in WCG. I heard horror stories about sexual abuse, job loss, families being split up because Armstrong decided that divorce and remarriage wasn’t valid, and way too many other wrong things that went on. Sure, every group, religion, sect, or whatever has its problems, but all these things I mentioned went on in Gods’ one true church during the Philadelphia era….whatever…
February 14th, 2008 at 11:56 am
Admiral– the idea of the one world kingdom is what God is eventually going to do.
But believing that Ronald Weinland is the “true and only prophet of God in the end times” is a very very miscalculated fantasy.
You were in that church. I have listened to pretty much every sermon on his site and all of the interviews. I can’t imagine what this guy is like in person. He uses every tactic imaginable that are indicitive of a cult.
You tell me.
February 14th, 2008 at 11:58 am
jimmy….its funny you mention that about Tkach dying. Weinland has said that about at least 2 other people. They did something like taking money or disagreeing with another minister about something , then a couple months later they die. He uses little things like that. I also heard a sermon one time where he told everyone that God gives him the power to know peoples minds and their spirits and if they aren’t right with God, don’t pay tithes on time, etc. that he’ll know about it.
February 14th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Jimmyhags,
You already know my background so I believe you are disingenuous asking a question you think you know the asnwer to… Like Ironwolf, I have already stated that I grew up in WCG from age 5. I have memories of Xmas, Easter, Valentines Day and the rest. Before you say “aha I got you”…
and think my life was one of coersion…
I went to public school, had non-church friends and attended a secular college. I also did some “looking around” in life before committing to this belief system. I took a look at Catholicism (my dad was raised catholic), many forms of Protestantism, Jewish/Hasidic beliefs, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the 7th Day Adventists, the Church of God 7th Day. The only religion I think I failed to evaluate was the Mormons. Ironically, I moved into one of their communities ten years ago and solved that problem.
My parents let me begin to make my own decisions at a young age. The sabbath became a question when I was 11. I had the opportunity to swim, in the Jr. Division at the county level swim team and they left it up to me. The meets were on Saturday. These types of choices mark my entire life. No one was twisting my arm. I alone made choices about my life. My parents were not going to disown me if I chose differently from what they believed. I have never stuck my head in the sand and lived in a narrow CoG world.
Subliminal…now there’s a tricky word. Kind of like back-masking. If you play it backwards it says something evil?
Jimmyhags, this is going to be very very hard for you…but it is absolutely possible for a sane, logical, purposeful, in-control-of-their-own-choices, kind of individual to actually believe HWA taught true doctrine and that RW is one of the end-time witnesses. I do understand the contradiction in your mind. Because you think it’s disproveable and crazy, there must be some kind of delusion lurking under the surface. I’m sorry you won’t find one here. I know it would make you feel much better. Unfortunately, I am pretty normal. Married for 18 years with 2 children (fun, nice kids and one is almost 16 and not in rebellion against us, good students. Our son is a computer guru already), a house with a mortgage, 2 cars, a cat & 2 fish. My friends actually LIKE me..imagine that. And they aren’t in the Church of God. Some are even Mormon (and they think they are the one true church BTW)…
Jimmy I feel like you are scraping under rocks to find some hidden agenda or sinister plot. I’m sorry for you because if you can’t just be happy with your own existence, I don’t know what to tell you. I hear axes grinding in every post you submit. I’m starting to feel like I need to turn down your volume.
bzygirl
February 14th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
i’m sorry if I said anything to offend anyone. It isn’t my intention. I know RW whole heartedly believes that what he is doing is of God. I just personally don’t believe it is. He isn’t trying to ruin anyones life or cause people to lose their friends, family, money, etc….but those things have happened and will continue to happen until his prophesies don’t come true and he fades away.
February 14th, 2008 at 1:58 pm
Bzygirl,
My intention isn’t to say “I got you!” I was just curious as to your spiritual background.
I just can’t sink my teeth into anything HWA taught. I am sure you are aware of the changes of WWCG. What I, like millions of other people, look at the new WWCG and the changes that occurred. Here’s what I have a problem with:
1. Since I have known who HWA is– his teachings were not Biblical to me as far as the Sabbath, the holy days, salvation, heaven, hell, etc.
2. Church members actually believed that HWA would not die. They worshipped him. His writings were said to be “of God” and just as important as the Bible. He was called Elijah, the only true spokesman of God in the world,etc. Now Ronald Weinland is doing the same thing.
3. People in that church got sick because HWA did not believe in healing except repair of bones. Farmers lost EVERYTHING because HWA didn’t believe in fertilizing crops, members were kicked out when church officials found them to be divorced and re-married. Families were torn apart.
4. Reports of alcohol, sexual, and drug abuse as well as emotional problems were very common in the WWCG. All of it was played off as either false accusations and/or Satan’s influence.
5. Over 200 plus HWA prophecies simply didn’t come true. Some were so far fetched it was crazy– like the one where HWA said that God told him to bring his church to Petra to avoid the “destruction of the United States” and was negotiating with Middle Eastern officials to make this happen… totally false.
There’s more… but NOW Ronald Weinland claims that all of these “things you read about Herbert Armstrong” are all false and are the workings of the the influence that Satan has on the new leaders of the Church.
I have never heard Ron Weinland EVER say that HWA was wrong. I have heard him say things like “Mr. Armstrong wasn’t wrong. He was given all of those things by God, but he was just misunderstood on what to do with them, or God didn’t make it perfectly clear because it was not time.”
That makes no sense to me, because HWA predicted things like: Adolf Hitler was the Anti Christ and would emerge as forceful WORLD DICTATOR after he invades Russia.
Now, everyone knew Hitler was going to invade Russia. It wasn’t as secret, but we all know that that attempt didn’t make Hitler a forceful dictator. What resulted was Hitler’s death.
If I was to believe HWA and RW, then I would have to come to the conclusion that GOD was wrong, because he was supposedly giving HWA prophetic visions and messages regarding this. I don’t believe God is wrong about anything…. so since HWA’s prediction about Hitler turned bunk, then the logical conclusion would be that Herbert Armstrong was totally wrong– not God.
And if you look at the NEW WWCG…. their story is amazing. Millions will agree that God RESCUED that organization. After Herbert Armstrong died the church didn’t FALL ASLEEP or fall to Satan as Ron Weinland says… It was brought to life by God!
So you see, this is not about taking apart scripture… because that can be a lifelong debate and process in itself. Should we celebrate Christmas, should we worship on Sunday, should we keep the Sabbath, is the Holy Spirit a seperate part of God… these are trivial arguments. What this is about is WHY someone should believe Ron Weinland. I mean he, like Ironwolf I think said, seems to be cut from the same cloth as Herbert Armstrong. I agree with that.
Also, what is very strange about RW and all of the ministers that have come out of the COGs is that they spend their entire careers preaching about the “end.” The good news of Jesus Christ and “going out to all nations and making disciples” is very rarely preached by these guys. Weinland even says that now, God is NOT trying to save anyone or save the world. That statement right there should have anyone scratching their heads.
The COG has always been very interested in getting everyone up in arms about how near Christ’s return is. I don’t need anyone to tell me that Jesus is coming back. I know that. Actually, Jesus preached that we are supposed to KNOW He is coming back and KNOW the signs that he is coming. We as Christ followers are not supposed to get worked up about when. We are commanded to spread the love of Christ and know that someday–wheter it’s 2011, 2012, 2222, or 3000 He will return and set up his Kingdom.
And finally—- Ronald Weinland says that he is one of the two the PROPHECIED end time witnesses. He also says he’s a PROPHET and spokesman of the two witnesses. Where in the Bible does it say there is going to be an end time PROPHET. In terms of the end time witneses–these two individuals are going to be MINISTERS or PREACHERS and those who get in their ways— they are going to have powers to take them out. Scripture doesn’t say anthing about the end time witnesses being prophets. They are going to be WITNESSES to everything that is going on. They are going to be there to preach that God is responsible for everything that is going on and to give people the chance to come to Christ.
Again, I do get a bit worked up, but I also don’t mean to bash on anyone or am I am trying to nail anyone’s beliefs to the wall.
Doesn’t anyone else have a hard time believing anyone who’s come out of the OLD WWCG?? Because that is what Ron Weinland is– a former pastor of the OLD WWCG.
February 14th, 2008 at 2:25 pm
the word “subliminal” has nothing to do with back-masking.
February 14th, 2008 at 2:42 pm
Jimmyhags,
I could go point-by-point on some of your questions. Look, I’ve had to answer the same questions for myself. So I do know where you are coming from. There are two divisions however in your issues — one is doctrine and one is prophecy. Then you throw in a third issue - church culture.
The reason we’re having a hard time finding common ground is has to do with doctrine. You can’t find the truth in HWAs doctrinal writings. That ties my hands. I have studied many different views of religion, as I mentioned, and the truth I found, was in the doctrines of the WWCG. All other religions, to me, twisted scripture, left things out, gave a warped view of God and made the bible a disjointed mess.
Jimmy - it’s about that fun house mirror again. I can see the different interpretations as clearly as the next person. I’m not blind. I also know that the word of God is sharper than a 2-edged sword & a discerner of the thoughts & intents of the heart. People find what they want to find. I have sat at the same table with my bible looking at a scirpture and seen a completely different interpretation than the person sitting across from me trying to argue me into submission. Jimmy, I can only tell you what I see. What you see is between you and God.
On prophecy — I am not qualified to either defend or confirm anything HWA said prior to 1972 on prophecy. I do know, from my own studies, that HWA had a growing process in understanding the framework he was seeing did not yet have timelines associated with them. By the time my family came into the church in 1972, timelines were a thing of the past. Timelines were not a part of my life. I know people very well who were around at that time. The reality is, long before things got very close (years not months) HWA was clear that “the end” wasn’t nigh. People who sold their homes and holed up for the end did so on their own volition.
People criticize RW for saying this but, HWA was not a prophet. He was mistaken about certain specifics early on in his ministry. He was an apostle - one sent forth to preach the gospel. He was the prophesied Elijah to Come - he came in the spirit & power of Elijah - not a prophet like Elijah. Just as John the Baptist preached the gospel of the kingdom of God prior to JC’s first coming, HWA preac