Ron Weinland: Discussion Part 3
Interest in Ron Weinland remains high, and after another 250 or so comments, it’s time to begin a third thread.
Part 1
Part 2
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Thanks for the clarification Ironwolf. No, Weinland does not actively glorify death. But he does preach about it, as being inconsequential to members, because they will be raised in the first resurrection to be Old Testament overlords of us all.
Jimmyhags,
I’m not questioning that there are scholars of these languages. But in most sects, a high degree of scholarship simply isn’t a requirement to become a preacher. In fact, it often works against it, because people who study deeply into the history and text of the Bible often come away with a much less literal and much more liberal interpretation of the scriptures than would be permitted in most Bible Belt congregations.
You have read the books with closed eyes and a hard heart and I can’t help you on that. What i would like to ask is what is your take on how events are going to unfold? If anyone else has got alternative answers, setting the whole time frame out in front of us as only a prophet would be allowed to, then I’m all ears. Everybody is so sure that RW is wrong, but they have no other alternative. Is any other “church” preparing for the Kingdom of God coming to this earth? Does anybody teach it? Do you get this information at your regular Christian churches? No!
As you say the bible does not state how exactly the witnesses do their job, then who are you to say he is false and not of God? The scriptures say that the witnesses are killed in the streets of Jerusalem towards the end of the tribulation. It does not state that they stand in the streets of Jerusalem for a whole three and a half years! There’s a big world to cover before they end up there.
Weinland Watch said: …..Weinland, as always, is covering his butt, and not saying definitively one way or the other who this “great religious leader” is. That’s a classic Armstrongist tactic.
You sure hit that on the head. When will everyone realize that Ronald Weinland, Gerald Flurry, Roderick Meredith and anyone else that is still holding on the teachings of H.W. Armstrong are just a bunch of wannabees?
Now I use that term, because that’s what is going on. They are all fighting with each other as to “who is REALLY carrying on the work of our dead leader!”
And all of them… I have watched Flurry and his son on TV, I am familiar with Meredith’s works. All of them teach the false prophetic work of H.W. Armstrong.
And the sad thing.. THEY ALL BELIEVE IT. ALL THREE claim to be prohpets and have “predicted” things, etc… But Ron Weinland now, has REALLY gone of the deep end.
And if you listen to his latest sermon…… THINGS ARE SPINNING OUT OF CONTROL for him. You can tell by the tone of his voice, his harsh and judgemental statements, etc..
I have this before.. THIS IS NO JOKE. People need to get away from this guy.
And I said that I would wait it out and admit it if RW is right. And I will do that… but you are going to keep hearing from me until that time.
People’s lives are in danger—- in all aspects as long as they follow ANYTHING ever taught by Herbert W. Armstrong and now Ronald Weinland.
And look for.. in the near future for the other guys to start making WILD claims. PEOPLE COULD GET HURT HERE!
I am in the process of building a Website that talks about this stuff and I will link it.
But until then, like WW says— If you have anyone you know that’s in the COG-PKG==== GET THEM OUT NOW!
Claire UK said: Is any other “church” preparing for the Kingdom of God coming to this earth? Does anybody teach it? Do you get this information at your regular Christian churches? No!
The answer is YES!!!!!! The BODY OF JESUS Christ which make up that body….. all one church…The KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH is going to happen whether anyone wants it to or not.
Ronald Weinland is so quick to tell everyone how bad the world is and how much “haughtiness” (his favorite word) there is and how much pride is in the world, etc….. What he LEAVES OUT is how many people are being preached the message of Jesus to. And what he is COMPLETELY wrong on is WHY Christ came, WHY Christ died, WHY Christ rose and WHY Christ is returning.
Weinalnd is so far off base it makes my stomach turn.. but mostly, I feel for the people that follow him.
I am not preaching, but check back later today. My web page will be done.
Take care
So where do you think God is working at this time? I repeat what is your take on the way things will unfold? There is only one truth and if it’s not this one, what is it?
God said we have to worship him in spirit and TRUTH. The very word indicates that there is only one true way to worship and know God. Every Christians varying beliefs cannot be right, there has to be one way to do it right and it’s our responsibity to find it, with God’s help.
Ok guys some of this is bordering on laughable. My favorite today has been “how to talk to a church member”.. telling people they aren’t suppose to eat in front of members while they are fasting? lol
I actually laughed out loud. Those of us who have children to feed and prepare food for on fast days… we touch, cook, serve & clean up after said children. Our children needing food is not a temptation. Come on. Driving past a McDonald’s is not some great trial in life. Where in the world do you get this stuff?
Thank you, by the way, for your kind regards for my safety.
And Jimmyhags…where do you get the idea, biblically, that the two witnesses have to do anything but die on the streets of Jerusalem? (Besides common Protestant thought on the topic…?)
I can see the culture of “death” is not going to “die” on this thread regarding RW or the PKG. The members that recently died were old or sick. Their wishes were followed for their funeral arrangements. Many people have little or no hulabaloo at their deaths. I don’t see the point of persisting with this line of thought. It is bordering on paranoia. Seriously.
Life awaits…you all have good weekend.
“There is only one truth and if it’s not this one, what is it?”
Luke 17:20-21 “Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.”
Ponder it, pray on it, live it.
I agree, my research and statements about the afterlife beliefs of both the WCG and the current CoG-PKG were blown out of proportion (and can be found here.
My concern was not that the church members requested no funerals, but that Weinland appeared to be withdrawing his group from associating with members of other splinters (Lifton’s “milieu control”), as had happened with the first funeral.
The fasting link went through as a pingback, because I linked BizyGirl’s comment on fasting to my article How to Talk to a Church Member.
The part cited is one small part of a larger article, I suggest you read the entire article before laughing it off. I believe it is very important for friends and family members to maintain peaceful contact (i.e., non-confrontational) with members of Weinland’s group.
My advice was clearly stated as being my own opinion and from my own experience. At every step along the way I have urged people to seek the advice of professional exit counsellors, and I do so again, here, publicly.
Now. Would any of the CoG-PKG members like to comment on Weinland and his evangelists’ teachings on British-Israelism?
Weinalnd Watch,
I’m not actually a baptised member of the CoG – PKG but I am someone who has read the books and had they’re eyes opened by God to this truth. I’m 26 and as i said in an earlier post, brought up a Catholic. After years of searching and trying to find out about God, I had all my questions and more answered in these two books. I am followiing all the teachings of this church and changing my life accordingly. I dont feel any need for exit counsellor, i’ve never been more at peace in my life! But thanks for your concern
To Claire UK: Would you like to comment on Weinland and his evangelists’ teachings on British-Israelism?
ClaireUK said: I repeat what is your take on the way things will unfold? There is only one truth and if it’s not this one, what is it?
Well how do I personally think it will go down and unfold.
Well, first, let me say this. The world is looking for a concrete answer as to WHEN, HOW the end of man will happen. There is NO WAY to determine that. Ronald Weinland says he has the answers and that HE is the spokesman for the world and one of the two witnesses. That is VERY VERY VERY huge thing to claim, especially when he’s done it by using Bible verses and texts that are NOT CLEAR on just how the end time will occur.
There nothing in the Bible about an end time “prophet” that will come and be the spokesman for the two witnesses. To be quite clear, the Bible is NOT CLEAR on exactly who the two witnesses will be. But it is clear that the two witnesses will be there and THERE WILL BE NO DOUBT who these two will be– we will know that from 1. What they preach. 2. The things that they are doing. There will be no doubt that they are from God.
I HIGHLY HIGHLY doubt that God is going to have one of the witnesses write a book in order to tell the people in the world that they have been bad and wicked, etc. Why would He? We have the Bible to tell us that things will get a bit hairy with signs of the end times. I don’t have to read a book by some former minister in the World Wide Church of God to tell me that, especially one that is still hung up on false teachings of a man that died (Armstrong) when the ENTIRE church thought he was Elijah and would not die.
And you are right when you say there has to only be one truth. Ronald Weinland is using smear tactics, fear and human judgement of other beliefs in order to make people realize his group is the only true church on earth. How can that be when we have a Bible that is CLEAR that the TRUE church is made up of those who believe in Jesus Christ– with Christ alive in their hearts by way of the Holy Spirit.
Weinland is VERY VERY quick to bash on the Catholic Church. In fact, I think he’s made a career out of recruiting frustrated Catholics. I was a raised Catholic. I know the flaws of the church. But does that make it EVIL and does that mean it invented CHRISTIANITY? NO WAY.
What Ronald Weinland doesn’t understand.. he says he’s got it nailed down… but what he misses is this: The Roman Catholic Church was THE church that spawned from the original apostle’s ministry. Are there flaws in it’s doctrine? YES, but if you look at those flaws, that were influenced by man– you can either accept them as they are… or take the BIBLE, compare it to what questions you may have and make the choice: “Do I stay in the Catholic Church or do I find a group to fellowship with that believes in Biblical Truth?”
I did that. I looked all over. I know about the WWCG. And I can tell you , as other people can tell you, what it teaches and what RW teaches is not Biblical. There are so many errors, I found it to be so thought provoking, I started to wonder why so many people followed Herbert Armstrong. I found the answer and that is this: Many spiritual seekes WON’T READ THE BIBLE AT FIRST. They look for answers in church doctrine, by listening to speakers and sometimes bounch around until they find what THEY think is the best thing for them. Sometimes these folks are easy targets for Satan to lead them to churches that don’t preach truth. Herbert Armstrong, although I think had good intentions, taught things that was a mixture of Seventh Day Baptist, Seventh Day Adventist and Jehovah’s Witness doctrine. That’s exactly where Armstrongism came from. Ronald likes to say that Mr. Armstrong “discovered” this after his wife convicted him to start keeping the Sabbath, etc, however, it’s very clear according to WWCG history that he mixed the teachings of SEVERAL churches. I will cover this on my website.
Now you may be thinking “I have found the truth in Ronald Weinland based on everything I see and read and it all fits into place based on end time events.”
Now, please understand, there is no proof–none– that wer are in the end time. HWA predicted we were in the end time over 200 times……. and back then there was some SERIOUS and MUCH MORE DESTRUTIVE things happening, WWII, famines, etc.
In today’s world the “wars and rumors of wars”, earthquakes, falling away from the faith, FALSE PROPHETS, etc.. continues to happen, as it has been since Christ told his early church it would.
The Bible tells us that we are not to be afraid of these things, nor are we to be concerned with WHEN he is coming back. We are to live as though he could come back NOW in the blink of an eye. Ronald Weinland says that the Bible is written in code and Revelation was written so people couldn’t understand it because it was written about “another time in history and not for the time of John.” That’s partially true, because of you think about it, EVERYTHING written about Christ’s return after he died was for a time in the future. The Bible contains things in code–especially prophetic things pertaining to the return of Christ–because God wants us to continue to have FAITH… that He is coming! If we listen to every “prophet” that pops up that sets dates, etc, where’s the faith in that? Jesus said he said he would come like a theif in the night.
Ronald Weinland does a good job of making a case for what is going to happen based on the 6,000 years of man’s rule, the 7000 year plan of God, etc, but what he leaves out is just what calendar he is going by. And if it’s to be believed, what calendar was GOD using. We don’t know. There are many calendars that have been used over the centuries.
I guess you COULD look at it like: God created the world in 6 days, then he rested and then ASSUME that he gave man 6,000 years of self rule as RW calls it, then will take the last 1000 for Him. But again, how can anyone be sure of that? We can’t. There’s no way humanly possible to be able to know for sure. If you have faith in God, and know the truth about salvation and believe, then it’s easy to understand that there is no need to worry about when Jesus is coming back.
And speaking from experience, Ronald Weinland is NOT a prophet nor is he one of the two witnesses of the end time. He can’t be. He can’t be because his teachings on salvation, heaven, hell, the trinity do not line up with Scripture. Not at all. They do, however, line up PERFECTLY with what Herbert Armstrong taught. And Herbert Armstrong, like I said, and you will come to know if you study his works, taught a “religious” and “ritualistic” doctrine that was full of holes. He falsely predicted–none of which came to pass–over 200 events relating to the second coming of Jesus Christ.
Also- we have NO way of knowing when the seals of Revelation will be opened up. whehter or not they are opened up, etc. And according to the Bible, there is not going to be an “end time prophet” in the sense that Ronald Weinland says he is.
Jesus Christ commanded his church to go to all nations to “prophesy” on his name. That does not mean we can predict future events, time when Jesus will come back, pinpoint when the seals will open, etc.
Jesus also commanded that his church spread the news of his love and his return. But he didn’t command it to be in form of fear, judgement and making predictions.
So my answer after all of that is this: First I suggest 1. Read your Bible. And try to understand that many of the books were letters written to certain groups of people. For example, God’s “laws” were given to the Old Testament Jews. They were commanded to keep the same faith that we have today in Jesus Christ. That faith was two-fold. First God told the Jews that he would make them the cornerstone of all of humanity so heeding his word was important. Secondly, God told the early Jews of the coming Messiah, who will come with a new covenant. Don’t get hung up on Old Testament writings. They are all important, and without them, the NT would be useless. 2. Read the New Testament in order FIRST. It will make the Old Testament all make sense. Because what Jesus Christ did, was not “ABOLISH” the laws of Moses, he fulfilled them in ways that may be hard for people to understand. For example, the Sabbath (RW loves to preach on this!) And I am not preaching, but if you read, Jesus worked on the Sabbath, Jesus fed his disciples on the Sabbath from the bread in the Most Holy Place in the Temple. He also taught that KEEPING the Sabbath (Saturday) holy and keeping that as a day of rest is important, no longer made it a PHYSICAL requirement. Read Hebrews because I don’t want to preach.
Anyway, I would DISREGARD what RW says about Christianity being evil, pagan-influenced, etc, because it’s not. And understand that God is NOT CLOSE MINDED– We don’t need Ron Weinland’s books to tell us anything we already may or may not know, especially knowing what’s inspiring this man. (that’s for another post)
Just a note to JimmyHags: Weinland’s teachings with regards to the RCC are absolutely nothing new: As a second generation adult member of the Worldwide Church of God, I can confirm that we absolutely were taught, in my congregation, that the Roman Catholic Church was the Great Whore of Babylon, referenced in the book of Revelation.
Nobody worry!
Stay Calm!
He said that if it does not work out to be a False Prophet of God
he will just… ” I guess I will find another line of work.” (radio interview)
Phew…and I thought he was being serious about this.
Weinland Watch,
As i said, i am not life long member and am still learning, but if you’re referring to the British Royal Family originating from King David’s line and the tribe of Judah then yes.
http://www.originofnations.org/Royals/royal_line.html
Off-topic post removed.
Off-topic post removed.
There has been some speculation on ex-member forums as to whether or not Weinland will take his family and church finances, and “flee alone” when it all hits the fan.
Jimmyhags,
Gosh, I think that’s the longest-winded “I don’t know,” ever!
Jimmy,
You said: ” And I said that I would wait it out and admit it if RW is right. And I will do that… but you are going to keep hearing from me until that time. ”
That is very interesting position to take. You are willing to “wait it out” yet you are going to oppose and actively speak against Ron until a nuke goes off in the US? I don’t see how your own statement shows any type of “waiting it out”. Those are not the actions of a person who is open-minded.
I seriously hope no one decides to engage you in a tit-for-tat refutation on doctrine. Just know that for every point, there is a counterpoint. Being a creationist, Jimmy, you must realize that there is a great debate, for example, about the viability of carbon dating. The same is true for irrefutable proof on British Israelism DNA evidence. Here’s one example: http://www.britam.org/DNARefutation.html I don’t even know who this guy is, but he’s not alone in saying that the DNA tests used to throw British Israelism out the door is, by no means, iron clad.
I’m not saying you agree with either of these views. What I am saying is that for every “scholar” you can find to say one thing, you can find another to refute it.
I’ll close with saying that if, from a christian perspective, you do not believe RW speaks enough about JC and Him crucified, that tells me that you haven’t really listened to his sermons. The entire message is about repentance and forgiveness of sin. The Kingdom of God is about a literal Kingdom/Gov’t (literal and spiritual) with laws that regulate conduct. You say laws complicate things…that salvation is so simple. Salvation is simple. James calls God’s laws “the perfect law of liberty..” and James was the book with “works” in it if you recall. Faith by works. You can’t tell you neighbor to “be warmed & filled” & not give him the things he needs physically. Neither can you come to God with warm fuzzies in your heart and never come to understand the laws He created & the character & understanding they impart to the mind.
Jimmy, you also want to rewrite history. The Catholic Church, themselves..the people you say were responsible for the Christian faith…they admit that they, not the bible, changed the Sabbath. It is upon the authority of the Pope alone. They make a little bit of fun of Protestants, saying that if Protestants will reject the authority of the Catholic Church then they ought to by all rights, be preaching a Saturday Sabbath. See the following link: http://www.biblesabbath.org/confessions.html.
I don’t a full-on doctrinal debate with you. Your position is by no means as solid as you claim, however.
bzygirl
Let’s try this again – the link failed:
http://www.biblesabbath.org/confessions.html
For BizyGirl: Do you believe the teachings of CoG-PKG on British-Israelism, yes or no?
WW – Do I really have to dignify that with an answer? What, exactly, is your point?
WW – let me ask you a question…
Since, according to both HWA and RW, the key to unlocking prophecy rests in understanding who the US & BC are in prophecy (ie. British Israelism), then if RW is correct about end-time events (ie. prophecy), will you then concede the point and admit that BI is correct?
bzygirl
Claire,
you said: Is any other “church” preparing for the Kingdom of God coming to this earth?
Never heard of the adventists or Jehova’s Witnesses? They all are proclaiming nearly the same horrible stories for so many years. Announcing that the end is near to come they all are expecting similar developments in the next few years – as COG/HWA/RW does – a never ending story! And, thats funny, so many believers are awaitung the end since Jesus told them that he would come soon some 2.000 years ago (Rev 22:20). Nothing new what Ron is trying to make you believe.
Claire UK said: The scriptures say that the witnesses are killed in the streets of Jerusalem towards the end of the tribulation.
Is this what Ron tells you? If you really believe in the Word of God and NOT (only) in the words of Ronald Weinland, I would suggest you to take a look into your bible. It’s Revelation chapter 11 where the two witnesses enter the stage. Their appearance is chronological arranged exactly at the end of the “second woe” (Rev 11:14) which is followed by a third one. So this is NOT “the end of tribulation” but in the midst of it!
Claire UK said: So where do you think God is working at this time?
I think he is preparing our homes in heaven – “New Jerusalem” (Rev 21:2). Are you getting the words of Jesus wrong when he told his disciples who is ruling the world up to his return as Messiah?
Claire UK said: There is only one truth and if it’s not this one, what is it?
The truth you are talking about, the so-called “plain truth” which is created by fairy-talers like HWA followed by RW is only poor interpretation and has nothing to do with spiritual truth.
Claire UK said: I’m not actually a baptised member of the CoG – PKG but I am someone who has read the books and had they’re eyes opened by God to this truth…
After years of searching and trying to find out about God, I had all my questions and more answered in these two books.
No baptised member but it looks like that you are a mental member of shepard Ron. Talking about his books in this way seems that they are your solely source of confidence, instead of the bible.
Bzygirl said: You are willing to “wait it out” yet you are going to oppose and actively speak against Ron until a nuke goes off in the US? I don’t see how your own statement shows any type of “waiting it out”. Those are not the actions of a person who is open-minded.
Sarcasim has it’s place.
And if Ron Weinland is right….I will pull apart my computer and eat every piece of metal and plastic that make it up.
And I am not “Waiting” anything out in terms of trying to see if RW is right. I KNOW he’s wrong. What I will wait and look for and pray for are the souls and saftey of the people that he leads into danger, because that’s what he’s doing.
With regards to nukes…… WE HAVE KNOWN THAT THE UNITED STATES IS A NUCLEAR AND TERRORIST TARGET FOR YEARS……… LONG BEFORE MR. WEINLAND!
He is going to be taking credit for predicting EVERY little thing that happens in this country in the next few months.
But get this: RW has SORT OF done a good job of evading questions and not letting certain cats out of the bag about CERTAIN EVENTS… BUT what he has really completely miffed on and TOTALLY put his foot in his mouth on is by saying:
A new US president won’t take office in 2009 if we even are able to scrape up an election.
Like I said, things are SPINNING OUT OF CONTROL for Ronald Weinland. Stay safe it you are in this cult and don’t want to get out. I hope that’s possible.
BizyGirl asks:
WW – let me ask you a question…
Since, according to both HWA and RW, the key to unlocking prophecy rests in understanding who the US & BC are in prophecy (ie. British Israelism), then if RW is correct about end-time events (ie. prophecy), will you then concede the point and admit that BI is correct?
bzygirl
I asked you, yes or no, if you believed British-Israelism.
I understand British-Israelism. I believed British-Israelism for a significant portion of my membership in the Worldwide Church of God.
I have since come to realize that British-Israelism is, as I said on the blog, a doctrine that is historically sketchy at best, and has been used as racist-fuelling hate speech, at worst.
Your question to me indicates that you believe British-Israelism. I would suggest you do some outside historical reading on this subject (by that I mean sources other than official church literature), and really prove to yourself what British-Israelism is, how it started, and exactly who still subscribes to it today (besides Weinland’s group).
Which means my answer to you is no, I do not “admit” that BI is correct.
I believe that British-Israelism is the single most harmful doctrine to ever come out of the Church of God movement.
It remains the most harmful doctrine to this day, in the hands of men like Gerald Flurry and David Pack. And Ronald Weinland.
If Weinland’s prophecies prove correct (which I doubt, as he has not yet struck anyone down with plagues, as he said he has the ability to do, in “God’s Final Witness”), then I too, will join JimmyHags in eating my computer, and packing up for the Place of Safety.
I say this with absolute certainty because I know I will not be doing it.
Stay well, and please don’t stop commenting here, no matter how much the others pile onto you for your beliefs. I was where you were, a little over a decade ago. I will not attempt to change your beliefs (please don’t take my efforts as such). I wish the very best for you, and your fellow brethren, in the CoG-PKG. Even Ronald Weinland.
All,
OK, I understand the concern of Jimmyhags, Weinland Watch, Reinhard, and others here. However, I see this is becoming a ragfest on Bzygirl in particular, who is clearly an adult making adult decisions, and who has been kind enough to answer your questions whether you like the answers or not.
As this continues, I’m finding the increasing levels of vitriol you’re showing towards each other in the name of concern for each others’ welfare breathtaking and yet… inanely tedious.
Discussion has its limits— once you’ve stated your position 10 times, and have nothing new to say, then it’s time to let it drop. This isn’t some kind of bizarro election for the office of Prophet where each participant gets one vote per comment.
So I’m introducing a new moderation category: redundant. Coming soon to a deserving comment near you!
In summary: before you uncork the next bottle of caps lock, consider whether you’re really adding anything new to the conversation. Thanks.
“Brevity is the soul of wit.” — Shakespeare
“I wish the very best for you, and your fellow brethren, in the CoG-PKG. Even Ronald Weinland.”
Yeah RW has some good gifts and talents. (As noticeable in the sermons)
However sadly he miss-uses the gifts and talents he has been given.
Claire, Be very careful in what you are led to believe. I too was raised Catholic and was at first, very taken with Ron’s books. I believed what he is saying was true but then I did as Jesus instructed us to do and tested what he is saying against scripture and now alot of the things that he is preaching just doesn’t sit right with me. He warns of many false prophets that will come in His name. I am still searching myself for the truth but I don’t think that this guy is it. I continually pray that God will reveal His truth to me and make me into the person that He wants me to be so that I can get right with him. Read your bible and test everything that this man is telling you.
BizyGirl, I have a question for you….What does your church believe will happen to it’s members in the time of tribulation as opposed to the rest of the world? I’m just wondering because I have checked into other religions like the Jehova’s Witnesses and they believe (if i remember correctly) that they will be spared from tribulation and be left alive until Jesus returns. Is this what your church believes also? I am just curious. I have only read Ron’s second book “God’s Final Witness” and he wasn’t real clear on this.
Weinland has no monopoly on predicting doom.The I Ching,the Mayans,remote viewers,the pole shifters and even a computer-the webbots-have taken a dim view for man’s prospects over the next few years.Several catastrophies could well take place without proving Weinland’s claims.
Conversely,he could be correct about everything regarding the hereafter yet not be one of the two witnesses.It would be a wonderful thing to live in a world for 100 years where everyone has an equal chance and where the moneychangers are no longer in the temple(If you get my drift).
Claire – that royal line was somewhat interesting, though not entirely convincing. Odd there was no Ephraim (who supposedly fathered Great Britain) but rather a Manesseh (USA by HWA) instead.
Bzygirl – to say that refutation was a little bias would be to put it very delicately. Brit-Am seems to have a forgone conclusion – it is generally wiser to seek evidence and then decide, instead of deciding and then seeking evidence for your decision.
Also, the Catholics didn’t “change” the Sabbath, they just hated the Jews and didn’t really want to be associated with them (they’re not terribly liked, something about claiming to be God’s people and laying towns under the “curse of destruction” – killing every living thing in it, in the good old days when God was still with them)
So they looked and saw the first two visits by the Christ were on a Sunday, and said “hey, if we let the sun worshipers come to church, we can assimilate with them and still keep our foreskin.”
Or something like that. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_in_Christianity
regarding above, I suppose the deal was that one from a line of Judah would rule over Ephraim and Manessah, so that line would be right.
My mistake. Are these names out of history books or “bible scholars”?
Miss B,
Please understand that i am only here to show opinion. Everyone’s spiritual journey is different and everybody takes their own time to get there. Believe me it has taken me all my 26 years to get here, but finally i feel a peace i have never felt before. I just know these books are right and what is being said in RW’s sermons make so much sense to me personally. As bzygirl says, she just knows that it’s right, that’s how i feel. Despite the majority opinion here about RW, anybody who has read the books properly in a humble spirit, will be able to see that they are not all about him. He repeatedly says that it is GOD who will fulfill all of these things written, to prove he is who he says he is.
I understand people not wanting to believe that the destruction will take place – who wants to think about that? But the culmination of that is the coming of the Kingdom of God that has been the plan since the beginning. Who are we to say that God would not be working in this way at this time?
Renton,
Yeah that line is interesting. I found it one night after i read it in Ron’s book. I couldnt believe it when he said that Queen Elizabeth II was sitting on the throne of David and from the tribe of Judah, bue with a google search i found that. It must have been taken from some historical records or something. I repeat, I’m am new to all this!
Claire UK asks:
I understand people not wanting to believe that the destruction will take place – who wants to think about that? But the culmination of that is the coming of the Kingdom of God that has been the plan since the beginning.
It may be instructive to note that this “plan since the beginning” has been “ten to fifteen years in the future” for well over half a century now.
The thing about Armstrongism that makes it so attractive to people is that they are living for “the future”. In other words, we were living for the “kingdom of god” and once it had returned we would be rulers over the rest of the unconverted “world”.
Living for the future is good, it gives a person hope, and something to move towards. This is why people have ambition, and set goals.
Living in the future before it even arrived, was what prevented me from living the best life I could, with the only life I’ll ever have, for almost twenty years.
Living a life in limbo while you wait for the end is no kind of life at all.
Miss B said: Claire, Be very careful in what you are led to believe. I too was raised Catholic and was at first, very taken with Ron’s books. I believed what he is saying was true but then I did as Jesus instructed us to do and tested what he is saying against scripture and now alot of the things that he is preaching just doesn’t sit right with me. He warns of many false prophets that will come in His name. I am still searching myself for the truth but I don’t think that this guy is it. I continually pray that God will reveal His truth to me and make me into the person that He wants me to be so that I can get right with him. Read your bible and test everything that this man is telling you.
Good point. I think you said you were raised Catholic. Contrary to Ronald Weinland and Herbert Armstrong have said, being raised Catholic IS NOT evil.
I, too, come from a Catholic background. I can tell you first hand– when I came to know the Lord in a personal way according to the Bible, I realized I owed much of what I already knew as far as the story of Jesus’ life, death and ministry to the Catholic Church. The only thing that I wasn’t taught that was that according with the Bible says, we can have a PERSONAL relationship with God, through Jesus Christ. I found that out on my own.
Does that make the Catholic Church evil? No. I think the CC is flawed, but not for the reasons HWA and RW have led many people to believe.
First of all, let’s start with the hallowed topic of the Sabbath. RW (HWA) teaches (as to MANY other organizations) that ALL OF HUMANITY are called by God to keep the Sabbath holy and worship on Saturdays. And according RW (HWA) the fact that Christians worship on Sundays was invented by or was changed by the Catholic Church. Ronald Weinland and HWA were not very up on church history.
I will just brush on the Sabbath– first of ALL OF HUMANITY for ever and ever are BOUND to keep the Sabbath– it would make much of what Jesus Christ preached and Paul preached is worthless. Reading the New Testament proves this.
And if RW and HWA would have studied…. The Roman Catholic Church did not change the Sabbath to Sunday. If that was true, then how does that explain how other Christians churches changed their worship from Saturdaty to Sunday???? There are many Christian groups that had NO CONTACT, or were not influenced or controlled by AT ALL by Rome.
Syriac, the Armenian, and Coptic Christians, all have worshipped on Sundays from the start. These are just a few Christian churches that had NOTHING—NOTHING== to do with the Roman Catholic Church, it’s doctrine or the Roman government.
Nobody “CHANGED” the Sabbath. Again, the early Chrisitians did keep the Sabbath, as it was the Jewish law. However, because of what Christ did on the cross, it didn’t ABOLISH, or WIPE IT OUT…. it simply ceased it from being a PHYSICAL requirement.
And RW and HWA have always said that Jesus didn’t rise on a Sunday, didn’t die on a Friday…etc… Now, they are also not up on ancient Jewish time frames and also are leaving out that NOBODY saw…. actually SAW… Jesus rise from the dead… but it was DISCOVERD on the “third day.” Christ said he would rise on “third day.” It’s easy to split hairs, and cult leaders love to do that.
For me, personally, I don’t care. I know what the Bible says and I undestand what the Sabbath was and is. I don’t split hairs. The Sabbath is the Sabbath and The Lord’s Day is Sunday….the day after the Sabbath, and the Feast of Firstfruits—which is why Paul calls Jesus’ resurrection the firstfruits of the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:20). Since it is the first day of the week, it is also the eighth day of the previous week, the day of the new creation (the allusion in 2 Corinthians 5:17).
This WAS NOT ORCHESTRATED by the Catholic Church. Ronald Weinland is just another HWA follower that has not idea what he’s talking about.
Are there true Christians in the RCC? Yes, I believe there are. God knows the hearts of every person on earth. Are there true Christians at the Methodist church down the street? Yes, there are. Are there people going to chruch every week that don’t have a personal relationship with Christ and are just going to through the motions? YES. Absolutely. That’s going on in EVERY church. The Bible talks about that. The Bible says that just keeping the law, and keeping rituals is MEANINGLESS…. And pray for those people is what we are called to do. It doesn’t mean they have fallen to evil influence, and should be “disfellowshipped.” We don’t worship a God that RW teaches about. God is a just, loving and graceful being.
Don’t let smokescreens= which HWA was VERY good at putting up– cloud your views.
OK, jimmyhags,
First we are all here simply giving our opinion. The way you write (and awful lot) in order to make yourself heard yet really not saying anything new is proving a bit overbearing for me. I can’t help it if you think that the Sabbath was “nailed to the cross” or that it is unimportant in the eyes of God. I can’t prove to you that RCC and other Christian denomintations are wrong with God because of what they teach and the feasts they observe, but i know it in my heart. How can all Christians claim to be the body of Christ if they all have different teachings and feast observances? How can we worship God in “spirit and truth”. We all have to be of one spirit and know one truth. We have to be singing from the same hymn sheet (pardon the pun) Ronald Weinland teaches that truth is keeping the Ten Commandments and the Holy Days of God. God is bringing his kingdom to this earth, why shouldnt we obey His laws now?
As i said, I am new in the teachings oF CoG PKG and Ronald Weinland. I know a lot of the splinter groups that came after 1994 are really annoyed at Ron’s sermons and see him as a false teacher. I can’t comment on anything that has gone before in the church because i didnt know about it then. All i can do is speak as i find and i find this to be true. I’d like to think that both points of view should be maintained here, both pro and against Weinland, otherwise there’s no point on the thread continuing.
Claire UK said: Living a life in limbo while you wait for the end is no kind of life at all.
I am glad to you say that. From someone who has studied the WWCG and RW’s organization, I can tell you that’s EXACTLY what they are teaching.
The only thing they are doing is taking the “limbo” period of time and filling it with predictions, date setting, fear, falsehoods, accusations to other beliefs and an egocentric doctrine–(we are the ONLY church on earth that’s true).
What Herbert Armstrong did.. I have stated this before many times– is take the beliefs of several different churches… Seventh Day Baptist, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christianity.. to created a religious sect that has tried to re-write and re-interpret scripture.
I have studied it. I have read RW’s books. I have read HWA’s works. I have read works by many WWCG ministers including YSRAIL HAWKINS, Gerald Flurry, Flurry’s son, Roderick Meredith, etc.
All of them have taken what HWA taught (the false teachings of the trinity, heaven, hell, salvation, etc) and have tried to take it further. Some claim to be carrying on HWA’s works, other’s claim THEY are the true church on earth, etc… the fact is, they are all FIGHTING over it. Ronald Weinland is calling for the deaths of a couple of them, PCOG has been involved in suing people for the publishing rights to certain HWA works. UCOG staff has been known to bash other splinter leaders. It’s ridiculous. And the fighting among these leaders is about keeping what HWA taught sacred as some sort of worldly universal truth. They all agree, however, that Armstrong was a prophet, apostle and the “end time” Elijah. Now I say “end time” because when HWA was alive, the entire church thought he was THE Elijah and would not die and that Christ would come back and that HWA was the proof. Well, one false prediction after another, then his death started a power struggle within the church. After his death, it was obvious they were wrong about him being THE Elijah of the Bible. So they started (RW at least) referring to Armstrong as the “end time” Elijah, who came in the “spirit” of Elijah to prepare for the end time and the coming of Jesus. Also after his death, it was found that HWA’s teachings, writings and his books were just hacked off pieces of other belief systems that he re-packaged and called his own.
Now they are all trying to keep it going and are fighting over who’s going to take credit for it.
My point here is: It’s NOT okay to live your life in limbo waiting for the return of Jesus. NOBODY. I repeat NOBODY knows when Christ is going to come back. It’s not Biblical that any human being, no matter what RW says to know this. And by believing RW and his teachings people do find themselves in LIMBO… they find themselves waiting around for things to happen, looking to see if worldly news fits into the things predicted, and develope a sense of paranoia and emotional unstability. That’s what LIMBO is— a period of complete uncertainty. The Bible doesn’t teach that! The Bible tells us to REST assured Jesus will return. And it also says REST assured that if he doesn’t come back in your lifetime, you will be with Him when you die. This crap RW teaches about death just being a “sleep” is nonsense. If it were true, then we wouldn’t be able to believe that God created man.
God created man as a physcial being first– from the dust of the earth. Then He BREATHED life and a soul into that lifeless being. The Bible talks about when man dies….. Their physical bodies go back into the ground, but their souls live. This does not mean that man is immortal. Ron Weinland says as did HWA that points to man having an immortal soul. Christianity doesn’t teach that man has an imortal soul! If man had an immortal soul, he could have 100% control over the afterlife and chose to fly around in the galaxies, appear anywhere he or she chose to after death, could chose to come back to earth as a horse, or a dog, and would certainly NOT need God! That’s what an immortal soul would be.
What the Bible teaches is that when we die– our souls will either be in the presensce of the glory of God, or be away from Him.
RW also teaches in his books and sermons that “God” would NEVER EVER torcher souls for eternity! (He teachs there is no hell) That statement can be a deceiving one. But if you understand scripture…. GOD WOULD NOT torcher anyone. But he does ALLOW people to go to hell. Just as he ALLOWS bad things to happen on earth. For example: My grandfather died of cancer in 1999. Did God give him cancer? NO!! God didn’t give my grandfather cancer. He ALLOWED cancer to grow on him and eventually kill him, but he didn’t cause it! The things that happen to the souls in the VERY REAL hell are not going to be done by God. That is going to be done by Satan to those who choose to not have faith in Christ. And the Bible, if you read it, does say some pretty scare, depressing, utterly sickening things about an eternity away from God. But it doesn’t say “torcher.” That’s a term Armstrong used and now RW.
So, if really look at it, believing in HWA’s doctrine WILL for sure having one in LIMBO.
Weinland Watch,
As i said, I am aware that parts of the splintered church are unhappy with RW’s teaching. I don’t proclaim to know much about the history of the church because i’m new to it all but i know the scars of what happened in 1994 run deep. i presume that you have had some involvement in the church due to the way you speak. I realise that people are sick of hearing that the end is nigh, you’ve obviously had your own experiences of this. What I am trying to understand is why you are spending all of your time trying to disprove Weinland? Why do his teachings bother you so much that you are willing to identify yourself as (the rather creepy) Weinland Watch? i’m just curious… do people who make up the church that was scattered have an alternative for the way things are going to happen and he contradicts this? Or is it mainly the fact that Ronald claims to be a prophet and one of God’s two end time witnesses that really gets up people’s noses?
As I said Jimmyjeans, I can’t change what you believe and I can’t change the truth I have found in Weinland’s books. I’m just advocating that anyone who is thinking of reading them does so with an open mind.
Claire UK said:……. but i know the scars of what happened in 1994 run deep.
I am not being a jerk. And I hope I don’t off that way. But I would urge you to talk to Weinland Watch and watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWAtvE1xiRk
Ronald Weinland’s version of what happened in 1994 is VERY VERY distorted. He doesn’t even begin to understand.
It’s sad. The above video link is very powerful.
Jimmy…
As someone who lived through what actually happened in 1994 and not being a person who has merely “studied” it, I can tell you that my experience was exactly what was described in RWs two books.
I don’t know Claire, but I think it’s unfair of you Jimmy to continually press your own ideas upon people who obviously do not agree agree with you. It would seem that for someone who finds mind control so distasteful, you employ many of the elements in your discourses that you preach out against. You are also not as “conversant” in HWAs or RWs teachings as you pretend to be. I have not commented on the volumes that you wrote, but much of what you state that RW teaches is inaccurate.
RW is also not teaching anyone to sit back and wait for the end to arrive. If you had actually heard his sermons where he addresses this he encourages the young people in the church to get as much education as humanly possible, for as long as possible. No sitting around. Work hard & improve yourself.
I don’t mean to be condescending, but I have largely ignored your railings against the church & RW, primarily because a careful reading of Ron’s two books shows you really don’t understand what you are reading…regardless of the volumes and reams you claim to have read from both HWA & RW.
That’s the last I will say on the topic.
bzygirl
Claire,
I will just say this. I don’t need, you don’t need, the man down the street doesn’t need the books written by Ronald Weinland. And I have read both books. And I don’t read anything without an open mind. However, I don’t ever “open” mind to things that I know are not true.
Ronald Weinland, Herbert Armstrong, Walt Disney, George W. Bush, Hillary Clinton or anyone else for that matter can’t change the truth of the Bible. And it’s very hard for people who haven’t accepted the Bible for what it REALLY says and for what it REALLY is to realize that we simply don’t need books like Weinland’s.
I have an open mind. When I read Ron’s books, it didn’t take me long–about 5 or 6 pages– to realize who this man is. I immediately, after the first few pages of his latest book started thinking: ‘this guy sounds just like Herbert W. Armstrong.’ After I read the second book, I went back and readt he first. And then it all came together just Ronald Weinland his trying to do. It’s very clear he’s just a carbon copy of Herbert Armstrong.. one of MANY. And I wasn’t looking for “answers”. I am not looking for someone to decode the Bible prophecies. We shouldn’t be looking for that. Because out of the thousands of books written about it, not one their authors have hit the nail on the head. I know Christ is going to return. I don’t need a prophet to tell me that. I have read Revelation many many times. I have read Isaiah, Daniel, etc as well. The problems that people run into when they read the prophecies is that they immediately start thinking of what certain things are in terms of today’s world….”what are the lampstands?” “What are the bowls?” “Who are the two witnesses?” HOW DOES THIS PERTAIN TO ME TODAY? Is it really important? I would say yes, it is, but if we don’t know, that’s OK too. I certainly don’t need someone who calls HIMSELF a prophet to explain it to me.
People are inquisitive creatures. And when we get confused, or in crisis,we immediately begin asking “What I am going to do?” “What’s the answer to this?”
I told a friend of mine a couple weeks ago when he asked me “What am I going to do?” in regards to a question about money. I said, “Why don’t you ask God what to do about it.” He said, “I should pray? What if I need answers now?” I said, “How do you know you need an answer now? You believe that God knows what you need better than you do, correct?”
Now, that applies to everything. If you want the answers to “When is Jesus coming back?” Just ask God. I have asked that. I have read books that I thought were answers to prayer…. and they were. But none of them told me EXACTLY when Christ will come back. I have heard people preach that that they know EXACTLY when He’s coming back. But you know what? God still keeps speaking this: “Don’t you have faith?”
Ron’s books are nothing more than one man’s twisted fantasy. He claims that “God gave him this prophetic knowledge” because until now He wanted to keep this information sealed. What does that even mean?
If I had a dime for every “prophet” I have seen over the years, I’d be rich. All of them that claim to know the Bible all claim to know the same things. They, in fact, have a twisted view on what prophecy even is. It’s been my experience that ANY TIME someone uses the word “prophecy” “prophetic” or “prophet,” I chuckle a bit. Because all of them take a few Bible verses and immediately try to use them as a foundation of “WHY” they think they know certain things.
And that is all Ronald Weinland has done. He has a newspaper in one hand and a Bible in the other. The same thing HWA and the onld WWCG folks did. There is nothing new.
Jimmyhags,
So… by listing those other sects along with Christianity you have implicitly made the statement that you do not believe the members of those sects are “true” Christians. This, obviously, extends to WCG and COG-PKG. So, Jimmyhags: please enlighten us as to which sect (or sects) you believe contain the “true Christians,” presumably including yourself.
Yisrayl Hawkins was a member of WCG, but as far as I know he was never a minister.
Unlike the rest of “orthodox” Christianity, eh?
Actually, HWA taught that man did not have an immortal soul. In fact I remember many WCG sermons railing against the idea. If we had an immortal soul, then it would be impossible to die the “second death.” This doctrine was one of the main points of distinction between WCG theology and the mainstream Christian sects that reviled it as a cult— we did not teach that hell was eternal, which would require an “immortal soul.” To orthodox Christians, this was a heresy.
You really need to read up on theodicy and the problem of evil. Basically: an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God not only would never “allow” such things to happen, but could never “allow” these things to happen. Why? Because with such a God, everything that happens is an extension of his will. Because such a God cannot ever be ignorant of evil, nor powerless over it, for him there is no difference between an act of commission, and an act of omission. In other words, if evil exists, God cannot deny responsibility for it. Trying to shield God from guilt by saying he “allowed” something ignores the fact that God could have just as easily “disallowed” it— allowing and disallowing are both equally acts of will for God.
BTW, it’s “torture,” not “torcher.”
Bzygirl,
You are not being codescending any more than I am trying to implement mind control.
And I am not saying that what happened in 1994 was tough on some people, but there is NO WAY.. not even one bit of truth to the fact that the old WWCG was THE church prophesied in the Bible.
Herbert W. Armstrong taught a false doctrine. Ron Wienland teaches a false doctrine and anyone else who claims to be carrying on the works of the OLD WWCG is a false teacher. Period.
And I never said Ron was teaching to sit back and do nothing. Quite the contrary. He’s teaching to prepare for the end… no question about it. And if you believe he’s teaching you how to improve your life, you have been hoodwinked.
Very aware of that. It’s also prophet.. not profit. You folks make me laugh. And laugh very hard.
Ironwolf said: You really need to read up on theodicy and the problem of evil. Basically: an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God not only would never “allow” such things to happen, but could never “allow” these things to happen. Why? Because with such a God, everything that happens is an extension of his will. Because such a God cannot ever be ignorant of evil, nor powerless over it, for him there is no difference between an act of commission, and an act of omission. In other words, if evil exists, God cannot deny responsibility for it. Trying to shield God from guilt by saying he “allowed” something ignores the fact that God could have just as easily “disallowed” it— allowing and disallowing are both equally acts of will for God.
You have been led so far from the truth….. And I am not saying anything agains you, but I am very familiar with those teachings. I didn’t spend 6 years in college weaving baskets.