Welcome to the fourth Ron Weinland discussion thread!
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February 23rd, 2008 at 5:35 pm
“Finally, April the 17th, of this year, the first Trumpet blows.”
Yes…yes and it will be 10 more years waiting period after the first trumpet….. ..blah blah blah. This is going to make stretch armstrong look bad. Hey..wait a minute that actually has a double meaning. Way to go me.
February 23rd, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Firestorm,
It looks like you have listened to Mr. Weinland’s sermon for toay. It was quite interesting. Not that I believe it, because I don’t. What is very obvious about this sermon is actually what those in the cult may not know. And that Ron hasn’t gone one week without making outlandish claims about the Catholic Church, making angry accusations about Christianity and how his group is the only true church that God recognizes on earth.
That so me speaks very loud volumes about just how false he really is. If we were to believe Ronald Weinland and what Herbert W. Armstrong taught, then there would be no reason for anyone, especially the minister to keep harping on how everyone else is wrong. That’s a classic method used by cult leaders to get followers to believe. They continuously pound things into the ears of anyone who will listen. If people who are spritually confused and they hear things like Ronald speaks on enough, Satan will present a false sense of security in what he’s saying.
This isn’t entirely Ron Weinland’s fault. It’s safe to say he opened a portal up years ago that has allowed falsehoods (very dangerous ones) into his heart. And now the only thing he knows how to do is to spew those things out.
And keep in mind, God will allow this to happen. But rest assured, he will deal with it. Ronald Weinland, just like Herbert W. Armstrong will be found to be false. And by writing the two books and making the claims he has made about himself alone will play a big part in why and how he’s exposed.
But I do like this blog. Chrisitians and non Christians alike need to be aware of garbage like this.
I
February 23rd, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Comment removed: redundant, trollish
February 23rd, 2008 at 8:28 pm
I think firestorm was referring to my post - I listened to his sermon as always.
thetruthcommitee sure has a lot of the same literary mannerisms as jimmy - hopefully he won’t be so tediously repetitious.
February 23rd, 2008 at 8:32 pm
And I’m pretty sure those in his “cult” are well aware that every sermon he preaches the lies of other denominations, including the other CoGs, because he truly believes God is only working through him right now to accomplish His works.
If they haven’t, they shouldn’t be sleeping in his services - I’m sure he wouldn’t like that.
February 23rd, 2008 at 8:32 pm
“It looks like you have listened to Mr. Weinland’s sermon for toay. It was quite interesting. Not that I believe it, because I don’t.”
The reason I posted that was because ‘thetruthcommitee’ poster appears to me an undercover RW supporter. When he says “it looks like you read the sermon” it appears very suspicious to me because all RW members continually say ‘did you read the books? did you read the sermons? So no offense to the poster but his entire post seemed to me some kind of covert way to encourage (baiting) me to keep my….interest going in regards to RW and his Prophecy…or maybe I’m just too paranoid this time?
February 23rd, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Who else is the whore of Babylon? The Catholic church doesn’t seem too picky about who she goes to bed with, if you catch my drift.
For that matter, if BI is false, then what happened to all the promises God made to the descendants of Abraham to make him a multitude of nations? The Jews haven’t exactly dominated the planet.
February 23rd, 2008 at 8:49 pm
I don’t think that it is God’s intension for any of us to know when Jesus will return. Think about it. If we all knew when Jesus was going to return we would all continue to live our lives as normal, sinning and carrying on as usual then right before he was about to return we all would turn and repent. We wouldn’t live very Godly lives. Jesus only gives us signs to look for in the bible so that we would know that the time is near. I don’t believe that he revealed this time to RW or anyone. Jesus said at the time of his return that it would be like the days of Noah, everyone will be eating and drinking and living life as usual and then the end will come. “Behold, I will come like a thief in the night.” ……Why then would he reveal this time to RW that he was coming in the fall of 2011?
February 23rd, 2008 at 8:53 pm
why, so Ron could warn us about the nukes going off April 17th, so we know who the real prophet is, silly.
February 23rd, 2008 at 10:06 pm
I am not sure what Firestorm means by me trying to bait people. I stumbled upon this website just like the rest of you.
Actually, after reading both books written by Ronald Weinland and listening to his radio interviews, I started to listen to his sermons and try to see just how many people were buying into him.
There’s nothing covert about me or what I am doing here. As far as any Ron Weinland supporters, the ones I have run into are simply frustrated Church of Godders that have no problem identifying each other.
I can say with 100% honesty that I am not a follower of Ronald Weinland, have not interest in spreading his nonsense and hope that everyone comes to know what a very dangerous game he’s playing.
But, as I have stated. It won’t last. He will be exposed.
February 23rd, 2008 at 10:10 pm
Hi Ironwolf and members of the ” Ron Weinland No. IV discussion thread congregation”
Been browsing thru the four Weinland discussions. I was directed to “endtime2008″ website thru this link http://russellsteapot.com/
It’s G-Rated and totally harmless. Sometimes we need a laugh. Remember guys.. ‘all Californians are Americans, but not all Americans are Californians’..and if you know who said that…well..yeh… Seriously guys…enjoy ur life, smell the flowers, look up at the stars, cuddle a kitten, climb a mountain…whatever it takes… but PLLLZZZ stay out of church and when April 2008 has past…pour yourselves a drink or three. Smile
February 23rd, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Who else is the whore of Babylon? The Catholic church doesn’t seem too picky about who she goes to bed with, if you catch my drift.
For that matter, if BI is false, then what happened to all the promises God made to the descendants of Abraham to make him a multitude of nations? The Jews haven’t exactly dominated the planet.
Who is Babylon, you must ask yourself first. The Bible is not clear on it.
And God’s promise to Abraham did come true. The Jews have been scattered all over the world and have survived. What’s very important to also key in on is what area of the world we are talking about specificly in terms of the end time. Is the United States a part of end time prophecy? Sure. The entire world is part of end time prophecy because as times goes on, more and more countries are becoming affected by and involved in what’s going on in Israel.
And keep in mind the lost tribes of Israel have never been able to be located or linked to any modern country. Science has proven several times that certain nations were NOT linked to Israelite peoples, however, it’s never been able to prove any country is.
So God’s promises to Abraham are true. The Jews, have survived over the years many hardships, but still are very strong in all parts of the world. It’s not an accident that a large part of what controls the world’s financial markets is Jewish oil money. That is completely by design.
February 23rd, 2008 at 10:17 pm
OK this is for Renton:
I know the church makes out like the all the Jews died of happy old age in the Promised Land and there aren’t any Jews left but a few small sects practicing here and there.
Put the words “jewish diaspora” into your search engine, and your thesis on BI will quite literally blow up in your face.
ClaireUK says:
Weinland Watch,
As i said, I am aware that parts of the splintered church are unhappy with RW’s teaching. I don’t proclaim to know much about the history of the church because i’m new to it all
This is what I find unfortunate. Most of the members in the splinter groups are castoffs from WCG, or spend their lives hopping from one splinter to another, until they get disfellowshipped so many times, they head off and start their own. The fact that Weinland is recruiting new members that know absolutely none of the true history of Armstrong’s church just sickens me.
but i know the scars of what happened in 1994 run deep.
I’ll tell you what happened in 1994. The cult-watch groups were starting to close in on Worldwide, and Joe Tkach Sr. thought the membership was brainwashed enough that he’d just be able to do a 180 reversal of doctrine and nobody would raise a stink.
In the meantime, those of us who had lived our entire lives believing we were absolutely in the one true church and following all the legalistic rules, were basically dropped on our heads, told to put up or get out, and that’s what the majority of us did.
Some went on to and through the splinter groups, but at least forty thousand of us became thankfully free of all religion.
I realise that people are sick of hearing that the end is nigh, you’ve obviously had your own experiences of this.
I spent the first twenty years of my life convinced that I would not see my thirtieth birthday. That date has long since come and passed, and I regret now the years of my life that I wasted in the waiting.
Your wait may be shorter, as you claim, but the end of your wait may very well be far more brutal than you could imagine, when Weinland is proven wrong.
What I am trying to understand is why you are spending all of your time trying to disprove Weinland?
Because he is not only setting dates, he is setting dates in the immediate future. Most CoG leaders have the common sense to at least hedge their bets, so they can refocus the membership after the predictions fall flat.
Weinland on the other hand is clearly mentally ill. It is just unfortunate that he is taking the membership of the CoG-PKG along with him on his own personal schizophrenia-fuelled trip.
I don’t want to see anyone get hurt, by being involved with Weinland’s group, and all the signs are pointing towards the potential that they could be.
i’m just curious… do people who make up the church that was scattered have an alternative for the way things are going to happen and he contradicts this?
Living Church of God (the splinter that Weinland split from) has an alternative theory. So does the Philadelphia Church of God (Flurry believes it will be 2009 when it all hits the fan not 2008). The Restored Church of God is pretty much preaching “We’re in the final gun lap!” But while Pack is not setting dates, he is urging members to take out personal loans and remortgage their homes and send all their money in to the work.
I, contrary to what you have been told by your leaders, am NOT a member of “the scattered church” because I am an ex-member of the church. I have no “alternative” theory for what is going to happen on April 17th, because I know that nothing will happen on April 17th. All of Weinland’s preachings, teachings, and prophesyings are not going to cause something to happen on April 17th.
A specific action, on the part of Weinland and/or his “evangelists” might potentially bring something about on April 17th that Weinland can point to and say “There’s proof!” but that theory forebodes something potentially dangerous.
Or is it mainly the fact that Ronald claims to be a prophet and one of God’s two end time witnesses that really gets up people’s noses?
It is the fact that he is setting concrete dates in the immediate future that are going to fall flat that worries people. There are quite a few of us who are worried that, when the absolute truth of the falsehood of his “doctrines” finally hits Weinland in the face, he will do something (he suggests, for instance, sending out an instant message to all members via the website when the time is ready) that will bring harm, either to himself, or to the unfortunate members of his church who believe his prophecies.
Even if that isn’t the case, it only takes one mentally unbalanced person to take Weinland’s “teachings” (and I use that term loosely) and turn them into a one-man-crusade to try and impress Weinland, to try and force the “prophet’s” words to come true.
February 23rd, 2008 at 10:22 pm
[…] http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/470 The current comments thread from the above. […]
February 23rd, 2008 at 10:36 pm
Argh. I keep turning pingbacks off, and they still keep going through. Sorry about that Robert.
February 23rd, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Mr. Weinland Watch,
I have been waiting for you to post again and I am glad you did. I though perhaps you were asked to not post as our other friend was.
I think you are very right on. As I watched and listened to Herbert W. Armstrong over the years, it became very clear to those outside the WCG that the hammer was going to fall. And how it must have been for members.
What folks need to also realize how dangerously serious the so-called teachings of Armstrong were. Within the WCG alcoholism, addiction, marital problems, sexual scandal, financial ruin of many people and utter emotional chaos was commonplace. I have encountered many people that have very deep scars because of time they spent there.
When Herbert Armstrong died, the members of the WCG stood with their eyes and ears open waiting for some catastrophic thing to come upon the world. They simply didn’t know what to make out of the death of the man that they were told would live forever, or not die before Jesus Christ returns. And by the end of his life, Herbert Armstrong simply did not have all of his faculties and by the time Mystery of the Ages was published, he was out of it mentally. Part of this was because he was a physically sick man in his early 90s. What also played a part was his already frayed mental and emotional state. This did not go unnoticed among the staff and leadership there. Weinland Watch just brushed on what happened in 1994. Yes, the cult-watch groups, which none of the current COG ministers talk about today, were coming down hard on the church. Some of those groups spawn investigations into many allegations that were said to have been going on. This is when the leadership started to look into the validity of Armstrong’s teachings. The very leadership of the church was faced very quickly and found that what they had been teaching and what they believed was false.
Ronald Weinland may have many believe that Joseph Tkach, Sr. suddenly became under Satan’s influence and in some crazy spiritual tyrade, turned to “traditional” Christianity. What actually happened is actually just the opposite of what Mr. Weinland claims.
And, yes, Weinland Watch, this kind of thing is exactly how dangerous things occur, especially when things don’t come to pass as Ron says. Because of his date-setting and his claim to be a prophet, in order to keep this going, he’s going to need some sort of “proof.” That proof could come as staged events which could hurt people.
February 23rd, 2008 at 11:24 pm
Weinland Watch - your story basically confirms Ron’s account of a 1/3 of the scattered church, and I don’t really consider a few hundred thousand Jews in a few countries a multitude of nations; if that’s God’s fulfillment of a promise, he’s pretty limp-wristed.
I think the most dangerous thing they might do on April 17th is call out the pope while he’s visiting - which could be hilarious.
TC - as far as I’ve seen Armstrong, and subsequently Weinland, are pretty hard nosed against the marital infidelities and substance abuse (not even nicotine) and any members I’ve had the pleasure to speak to seem relatively well balanced and functioning people, considering they’re expecting the apocalypse in less than 2 months.
I don’t understand why nobody thought Armstrong would die before the end - John the Baptist (the “Elijah” before Jesus) took an early leave to the narrative didn’t he?
I think the good thing about Ron is that he’s now very adamant about April, and that he’s willing to say he’s a false prophet if it doesn’t happen. Shy of something cataclysmic he’ll have to admit the jig is up (and possibly move to Switzerland with the church coffers).
February 24th, 2008 at 1:07 am
Jimmyhags, you know what you are talking about. More will follow, but beginning by viewing and listening to this
I believe there are 3 parts to it. Search for them.
http://thefourthwatch.podOmatic.com/entry/2008-01-20T21_01_03-08_00
http://thefourthwatch.podOmatic.com/entry/2008-01-31T04_38_17-08_00
http://truthstreamoasis.blogspot.com/2008/01/two-witnesses-revealed-must-hear.html
February 24th, 2008 at 1:30 am
Hahaha, this is funny!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDAmK4YIzww
February 24th, 2008 at 4:19 am
(Yawns) Yeah us human beings don’t take kindly to prophets.Everyone laughed when Noah built the ark, but they wished they had listened to him when the waters began to rise. I can see it is the fact that he proclaims to be a propet that really does annoy people. But the overall message is one of hope and deliverance in The Kingdom of God coming to this earth. It’s the preceding catachlysm that people don’t like to hear about or the fact that God (just may have!) chosen to work through this man and this small church at this time. At the moment you all have no way of proving he is wrong aside from your past experiences, which to me is a little
dangerous.
For the record, I am 26, a professional working in the healthcare sector. I have a totally sound mind and have not been affiliated with any church since i left the Catholic Church at 18 because i realised from reading the Bible that most of their doctrine was wrong. I am not some poor soul who is to be pitied because i have hoodwinked into believing what Ronald Weinland says. I, like so many of his followers believe this is where God is working because everything makes sense to me now. But only God can give that. Time will tell, i guess.
February 24th, 2008 at 5:03 am
To Claire and Byzgirl - did you watch the youtube link posted on the 3rd page by IronWolf? I definitely think you should, just to get a perspective from the “1/3 that were consumed”.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dYyHGRM3qqU
February 24th, 2008 at 5:57 am
Yes but I’m starting to notice WAST differences between the Prophets of God.
RW as Prophet would say things like: Haughty, No and God does not work that way…and the people went away confused asking who is this fruitcake?
JC as Prophet would say things like: Oh ye see the birds and the sparrows in the air……..and the people went away amazed asking who is this man?
I’m really trying to be reasonable here. Jesus was not repeatedly telling the people to ‘read my book’ he was saying things that made people go WHOA! instead with this RW guy people go HUH?
But of course it’s all Satan’s influence…right.
And tell me when Elvis gets here.
February 24th, 2008 at 7:34 am
Renton: and I don’t really consider a few hundred thousand Jews in a few countries a multitude of nations; if that’s God’s fulfillment of a promise, he’s pretty limp-wristed.
Not sure where you got your figures, but the Jewish population has, in fact been responsible for influencing many nations. But nevertheless, God didn’t say there would be 20 billion Jews on the planet, nor did he specify exactly what He meant. But history has more than proven that the Jews have not been killed off, despite very strong efforts. It also has shown that Israel and all of it’s resources is responsible for much of what the world has in terms of resources. There is a reason God chose to spare the Jewish people. Had they been killed off the world would surely be a much much different place.
And the alcoholism and emotional problems within the WCG, they started with the ministers. And the members didn’t dare lead on that they were in trouble with anything. I haven’t met any of Ron Weinland’s follwers, but I can bet they are of the lost and wounded flock that followed Armstrong.
February 24th, 2008 at 7:57 am
Actually TC of the two posters here only ClaireUK is a new convert; BizyGirl is a more typical splinter-hopping survivor of the WCG.
The current WCG is still just as much of a cult as it ever was, the leadership and members just mouth all the right homilies to keep the christian cult-watch groups off their backs.
The various splinter leaders’ take on “prophecy” is quite different from Weinland’s.
The Living Church of God (the original splinter that Weinland joined in 1995, which he subsequently broke away from) likes to take a prophecy-by-hindsight approach, claiming that “evangelist” Rod Meredith has “predicted” everything from 9/11 to I-don’t-know-what. Thus, in LCG’s eyes, RW’s a false prophet.
The Philadelphia Church of God does not like Weinland because Weinland is stealing and distributing copyrighted works to which only the PCG was granted access in the mid-90s. PCG’s “that prophet” Gerald Flurry believes everything is going to happen according to the Left Behind books, but that it will all start in 2009, not 2008.
The United Church of God (a church that is best described as madness by committee), the second-oldest, and the largest splinter, says things like: we respect prophecy, but don’t teach it anymore (I can’t put my hands on the exact quote at the moment).
Does that answer some of your questions on what you call “the scattered church” ClaireUK? Because it isn’t all one church. It hasn’t been all one church since Tkach Sr. gave sermon bringing down the changes in December 1994. And nothing, not even Weinland, is going to put 650+ splinters back together before April 17th this year.
Of far more concern to me, personally, is the fact that Weinland openly preaches BI, “evangelist” Wayne Matthews has definitive links to BI, and the membership clearly (as ClaireUK and BizyGirl indicate) believe BI (so does Renton but I believe he may be a member of another splinter).
British-Israelism, known today as Anglo-Israelism, is a “doctrine” that is historically sketchy at best, and has been used to fuel racist hate speech and violence at worst.
Nobody knows exactly which end of that spectrum Weinland’s church falls on. There have been no substantiated public links between Weinland’s church and the christian identity movement; this does not mean that there are none, given that the church is so open about its BI advocacy.
February 24th, 2008 at 8:38 am
Of far more concern to me, personally, is the fact that Weinland openly preaches BI, “evangelist” Wayne Matthews has definitive links to BI, and the membership clearly (as ClaireUK and BizyGirl indicate) believe BI (so does Renton but I believe he may be a member of another splinter).
This is a very good point. The new WCG may be still a cult in some people’s eyes, but the fact that they found BI to be a completely bunk doctrine that served as one of the reasons they started to scratch their heads about Armstrong.
Jimmyhags was right when he said we don’t need Ronald Weinland’s books. The Bible was written. It was written once and once and for all. In terms of prophecy, we were given exactly what we need. Mr. Wolf, I am not preaching here, but II Peter explains a bit out this.
Mr. Weinland as did Herbert Armstrong, wants everyone to believe that he’s got all of the answers to things “written in code” and writes little books to “explain” it to everyone. This is usually done for a few reaons by a cult leader.
1. It gets members away from reading and gaining solid unerstand on their own about Scripture. (Ronald Weinland in his sermons, doesn’t preach or teach the Bible, he read passages and explains why “he” knows the real meaning and brushes over what the “false” teaching of all other churches say certain verses mean.) This gets people to dive into the books for “better understanding.”
2. This gets readers to keep coming back and wanting more. Because if a spiritually weak person starts looking at a bunch of Bible verses and doesn’t really understand them, they look for answers because they are scared of the coming doom they are continually told is coming.
The Bible says in II Peter that the Bible is all we need in terms of prophecy. We don’t need a bunch of people running around publishing books that claim to have the answers.
Not to be as long winded here, but this is what Mystery of the Ages and Armstrong’s works on BI have done. They have totally strayed people’s minds away from the Bible.
And Weinland Watch is correct as well about what BI has done over the years. Many Nazi and Arian groups follow it to the “T.”
In closing here, I would just like to say if you listen to Ron’s sermons he is very quick to talk about how “man” or “people in the world” and “those people” are all ego-filled sinners that are going to be punished in the upcoming months. I have never heard him say that “I am a sinner.” Even the non-Chrisitan can admit that they stumble from time to time. But Mr. Weinland is following in the footsteps over every WCG minister I have ever heard, in that they always have answers for “everyone else” but they can’t humble themselves. But I guess you don’t have to humble yourself when you are a prophet or Elijah or the end time apostle.
His groups may be small, but with BI in his back pocket, Ronald Weinland could end up being responsible for some nast things in upcoming months.
One last note– about Left Behind: I have started to put some pieces together and for as much as Ronald Weinland discredits those books, he too, seems to be right in line with many of what the Left Behind series includes.
February 24th, 2008 at 8:51 am
Weinland Watch,
I’m wondering where you’re getting this idea from. Although I stopped attending WCG back in 1995 when I became an atheist, my wife still attends. She also takes our kids, and I sometimes get dragged along to church potlucks and such. From what I can see, there are none of the marks on the current WCG that once attracted ire from other mainstream Christian sects, and many sects have embraced the modern WCG as one of their own.
And I want to emphasize again that I think that the word “cult” is most often simply an epithet. Are the Southern Baptists a cult? Is Catholicism a cult? Are Mormons a cult? Is the COG-PKG a cult? Is Scientology a cult? Is Hinduism a cult? As far as I can tell, the answers depend on who you ask, and there is no one, universally recognized definition of “cult.” The word is simply thrown at “any religion I don’t like.” I am all for criticising various religions based on what they teach and how they treat their members, but I think that branding groups as “cults” does more harm than good to the critics’ cause.
February 24th, 2008 at 9:08 am
TheTruthCommitee,
Funny: Jimmyhags also defensively said “I am not preaching here,” several times. I suggest that if you want to get along here: if you find yourself feeling the need to say “I am not preaching,” that you are, in fact, preaching. Although your IP address is different, the fact you showed up immediately after I banned Jimmyhags, the fact that you write a lot like Jimmyhags, the fact that you defend his positions specifically by repeatedly naming him, the fact that you also seem to be the only other poster with a penchant for Left Behind, and the fact that you seem prone to preaching strikes me as strongly indicative that you are a Jimmyhags sockpuppet. If that suspicion grows any further, you will be banned again without warning.
Am I clear?
February 24th, 2008 at 9:11 am
IronWolf,
I still believe that the current WCG, for all its protestantism-flinging superficialities, retains a lot more of the old church than it claims to have thrown away.
The by-laws, giving Joe Tkach Jr. ultimate control of the church and its finances, have not been changed. Rumours persist that he collects a six-figure salary, but he will neither confirm nor deny that this is the case.
All WCG congregations are still required to send money to “headquarters” (members are not required to send a percentage directly the way that we were but the tithes are still required, “free-will” or not).
There is absolutely no transparency in the WCG as to where these funds are being spent. The Worldwide News then has braggadacio-inspired pieces in it about the multiple cruises per year that the ministry takes, plus their European vacation they have planned for the fall of this year.
Close examination of a recent article in the Canadian WCG’s “Northern Light” reveals a Bible study that is anti-Semitic down to its core. The same issue is absolutely breath-taking to read; on the one hand they claim to be attempting “reconciliation” and on the other, they use buzzwords that would be instantly familiar to any old-time CoGer and hint around that if anyone has a problem with the way the WCG behaved in the past, that’s their (our) problem, and not the current membership’s concern. In other words, if we fell away, it’s all our fault, not theirs.
You are correct that there is no universal definition of the word cult. I am one of the few who believe that all religions, to one degree or another, fall under the definition of “cult”. Some are benign cults that do more good than harm, and some, like the old-style WCG and its various splinters, are absolutely toxic.
The “new” WCG, in my opinion, falls somewhere in the middle of that spectrum. They are nowhere near as harmful as they used to be. But there’s still a lot that isn’t right with the church, and the fact that they are no longer persecuted nor even observed closely by the cult-watch groups gives Tkach and his ministry a lot more leeway than they had before, to get away with questionable activities.
February 24th, 2008 at 9:43 am
Mr. Wolf, I am not preaching here, but II Peter explains a bit out this.
Funny: Jimmyhags also defensively said “I am not preaching here,” several times. I suggest that if you want to get along here: if you find yourself feeling the need to say “I am not preaching,” that you are, in fact, preaching. Although your IP address is different, the fact you showed up immediately after I banned Jimmyhags, the fact that you write a lot like Jimmyhags, the fact that you defend his positions specifically by repeatedly naming him, the fact that you also seem to be the only other poster with a penchant for Left Behind, and the fact that you seem prone to preaching strikes me as strongly indicative that you are a Jimmyhags sockpuppet. If that suspicion grows any further, you will be banned again without warning.
I find this very funny. A sockpuppet? I am the only one to apolgize for preaching? I noticed that you don’ t like preaching, because you remove posts that you feel are preachy. I am sorry if I offended you.
February 24th, 2008 at 9:44 am
Weinland Watch,
It seems like a lot of the criticisms you are leveling at WCG can also be applied to many church organizations. They all vary in transparency and the opportunities for graft.
Many modern Christian sects also appear to be rabid defenders of Israel, but when you get right down to theological motivations, they only act that way because they are nurturing a set of circumstances they believe will come soon when Israel will become Armageddon’s flashpoint. In other words: they actually work against a lasting peace in the middle east by striving to bring about a self-serving, self-fulfilling, and arguably anti-semitic prophecy.
So I see little reason to single out the modern WCG from the rest of mainstream Christendom.
And if I understand you correctly, then you would agree that to a greater or lesser degree, “all religions are cults.” If that is the case, why not just drop the word “cult?” Why not simply criticise the harms of religion? Ad homeniem words like “cult” are not an effective criticism, especially when you are trying to reach believers.
A case in point: I remember as a kid, being in a bookstore and browsing through a book called “Kingdom of the Cults.” In it, I was surprised to discover that the Worldwide Church of God had a chapter devoted to it. But as a kid in the WCG, I found myself offended and dismissive of being labeled a “cult.” We were, after all, the one true church, right? In my mind, simply having that label hung around my neck made me more resistant to any sort of valid criticisms that may have been in that book.
February 24th, 2008 at 9:46 am
Ironwolf, thanks again for stepping in here, I’m pretty bewildered with these guys because they are not seeming to realise that whatever they write here cannot change my mind. I respect them for the fact they actually do listen to things i say as you know I am not a baptised member. I have not been affiliated with any of the WCG teachings until 6 months ago when i read RW books.
Weinland Watch, thanks for giving me an overview of all the splinter churches’ beliefs. I knew some of it because of what Ron speaks about in his sermons. I didnt know that people believed in the “Left Behind” series as FACT though - whoa. Surely anyone can see they are FICTION. Where is God the Father, the Creator of all Mankind, the one who is going to stop us from completely annihilating ourselves, ever mentioned? (By the way i have read and own a full set of the books.) It was only an interpretation made by two ordinary men of how they thought The Book of Revelation would unfold. Oh that’s not to mentions the fact that there is a “Rapture” at the beginning, but any further discussion of that here would just open a whole new can of worms!
One thing that was never mentioned in the Left Behind series was the 7 Thunders spoken of in Revelation10:4. This verse indicates that the 7 Thunders could not be revealed until the very end time. As with Daniel 12:9
, when he is told that he wasnt to know about everything he had written. Only a PROPHET of God could proclaim this news in the time of the end as the end unfolds. Ronald Weinland is the only person I have EVER heard talk about The Seven Thunders in any detail. This is because no one else can interpret what these thunders are! Sorry i am ranting, but Ron does say that the intensity of these thunders as we approach the Seventh Seal will grow louder and people will realise that this is where God is working. LOTS of people will be drawn back in to the true church. I am not writing this to antagonise anyone, just to say things as i see it. The opposition I get from you guys here is kind of fulfilling one of Ron’s prophecies for me anyway. I can see from this board that what happened back in 1994 shook people to the core in the church and that it is in fact pride and haughtiness (Ron’s favourite word, and a good one) that will stop them coming back into it. But they won’t be able to ignore the Seven Thunders when they start to intensify, that’s the whole point of them. 
February 24th, 2008 at 10:14 am
IronWolf:
I see where you’re coming from. I too found myself in the position of thinking “Wow, isn’t that church a cult!” while not even making the connection to my own church being one, while I was in.
My questions and cautionary advisories are not aimed at the current members of the CoG-PKG (although, if ClaireUK and BizyGirl want to ask me any questions about where their church actually came from, I am more than willing to answer), they are aimed at the family members and friends of those who may be subscribing to Weinland’s beliefs.
Since I’m not trying to de-convert anyone on this board (I know that’s impossible anyway because I’ve been where they are and I know I certainly would not have been unconvertable, prior to December 1994), I don’t mind that ClaireUK and BizyGirl and whatever others watching remain close-minded to my questions and advisories re: the CoG-PKG. I’ve been that close-minded before, regardless of how coherently or inoffensively any of us put the truth, it is not going to change any of Weinland’s supporters minds. That isn’t my goal.
My goal is to have the outside world become aware of the potential risks that Weinland is taking, and the potential for harm to come to members of the church that may exist, because of the nature and scope of Weinland’s “prophecies” and his church’s adherence to a racist doctrine that has been the spark for hate-fuelled violence before.
I have absolutely no conviction whatsoever that I will be able to convince any of Weinland’s supporters of the necessity of my questions. If I can bring attention to the disturbing signs in Weinland’s group to the outside world at large, then I will have been successful in getting the word out, or perhaps preventing people from joining up in the first place.
IronWolf, you and I are definitely in agreement about mainstream christian churches. Can we agree to peacably disagree on terminology?
Here is a direct Weinland quote that demonstrates everything I find wrong about the Church of God Preparing for the Kingdom of God:
“You don’t have to look anything up, you don’t have to go read anything you just know it’s true.”
The quote is taken from the “45 Days to the Seventh Seal” sermon Weinland gave on Feb. 9th. The context of the quote is that Weinland promotes the idea that “the holy spirit” will put in your mind that what he is saying is true.
If any of the members of the CoG-PKG were to stop and actually think about (or do some real research on) the claims Weinland is making, they would quickly fall away from Weinland’s sect (which, for all of ClaireUK’s exhortations, I do not believe has even a thousand members), which is why Weinland is literally urging his members not to think.
February 24th, 2008 at 10:23 am
Weinland Watch,
Another argument against the use of the word “cult”: if you use the word “cult” to describe whatever religion you are criticizing, then you are providing intellectual cover for believers of other, perhaps much larger and well-established sects who can console themselves by saying, “My religion may have some problems, but at least I’m not a member of some kind of dirty cult.”
February 24th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Weinland Watch,
Of course we can. I’m just giving you my views.
Again, I don’t see that any religion really values thinking all that much. Even Armstrong said, “Don’t believe me! Believe your Bible!” But whether you believe Armstrong or your Bible, neither action requires thought, only belief.
February 24th, 2008 at 11:24 am
I believe Ronald Weinland is a so called “false prophet,” but I also believe that what he predicts has a very real possibility of taking place. However, these things will not take place because “God” revealed these things to him, but that these events have been told to him by the very people that plan to act out these terrible things. In other words, he is part of a plan to usher in global government,and has been placed (by the people who have the real power,) within the Christian and religious communities in order to fool religious people into following his lead. These power elites are planning to stage a second coming of Christ, as well as set up the beast and Anti-christ. They are playing both sides of a charade. Research: book “Gods of Eden,” authors: Michael Tsarion, Jordan Maxwell, Davis Icke, “The Disclosure Project,” Alex Jones and what really happened on 9/11,Eric Phelps tells how the Jesuits are involved, and the list goes on. Please Please!!!! do the research, just for once, and you will find that this rabbit hole is deeper than you ever imagined. I am in the Army and am very patriot and have been a Christian my whole life; more and more people are seeing truth in these so called “conspiracy theories” and it is for good reason. Remember truth is the arch enemy of the lie, the lie will do what ever it takes to conceal itself, and the best way to conceal itself is with so-called truth. Also I just read an article at Newsmax.com talking about an investigative reporter and former FBI consultant Paul Williams, along with FBI Director Robert Mueller who both feel a serious potential for a nuclear attack on the U.S. In the words of FBI Director Mueller,”the threat feels so real he lies awake at night thinking about the prospect.”
“Williams maintains that al-Qaida is not content on blowing up one nuclear device or even simply a “dirty” nuke — but wants to explode real nuclear devices in seven U.S. cities simultaneously.”(NewsMax.com) Remember it is not al-Qaida who is ultimately behind this, they are merely pawns in the game.
February 24th, 2008 at 11:40 am
IronWolf you speak truth and I am definitely in your choir.
I realize (belatedly) exactly what you are trying to say, and I do agree with you.
I have little desire for my efforts to be supported by evangelical christians, which is why I hope I have not responded with any overly-welcoming overtures to such evangelicals on this thread.
I have even less desire for my efforts to be supported by members of Church of God splinters who are actively campaigning against Weinland on the basis that they have the one true truth about Armstrongism.
Unfortunately, I seem to have unwittingly attracted “supporters” of both stripes, and I am attempting to maintain my credibility in the face of both
In the case of the evangelical, I tried ignoring it, but I will be purging all references of such “support” from WW in an attempt to maintain (or even restore) any credibility that may have been lost as a result of this potentially damaging “support”.
“But whether you believe Armstrong or your Bible, neither action requires thought, only belief.”
I agree, and I have no belief in any person, religion, or book, myself. I do not concentrate my efforts on dissuading believers, nor do I want to provide cover for other believers to, as you say, tout their own religion as an antidote to Weinland’s sect. That is completely antithetical to what I am trying to do, and I do not in any way, shape or form, endorse it.
My problem with Weinland lies in the fact that he is actively encouraging his church members not to think, and the cult-watch groups do not yet seem to think that Weinland’s specific dates and Anglo-Israelism have the potential to be irreparably harmful.
Please note also that the cult-watch groups I am trying to point people towards are the non-religious cult-watch centres, what few of them exist.
Religious cult-recovery groups are cults in their own right, in my opinion, steering people from one bad religion into a slightly-less-bad religion, but a religious system nonetheless. (We may disagree on that point.)
February 24th, 2008 at 11:41 am
Jonathan….
And i thought RW was nuts…….
February 24th, 2008 at 11:54 am
Just a little history for anyone who’s interested (’wolf, pull this if it’s too off-topic):
I was raised under Armstrong’s teachings but not actually in the church, so I was sorta preconditioned to believe what Ron’s preaching. Ron was also brought to my attention in a very dramatic and emotionally profound way, and so I can’t help but feel drawn to him in some way.
Unfortunately, I also have a psychology degree (sociology minor) and took classes on religions and deviant sects (I always loved telling people I had “deviant sex” next period) so I’m well aware of tactics often used by fringe groups (such as milleu control) and a bit of the actual history of most religious groups.
I appreciate that I’m essentially undergoing a well-established process, but contrary to Ron’s exhortations, I don’t think things should be just believed on faith, and if doctrines are verifiable (or falsifiable) they should be the subject of research and inspection.
So here I am. I’ve been inundated with the scientific method too long to just accept a whole new world view by an argue from authority.
Hence, I reserve judgment until the proof is in, and thankfully Ron seems to have set a deadline on that: April 17th. Until then, I try to remain open to evidence from both sides.
February 24th, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Renton, I apologize for misinterpreting what you said earlier. I am glad that you are reserving judgement (I would say you also seem to be reserving belief, which I encourage you to continue) until April 17th passes.
Can I ask you what, if anything, you believe will happen to the CoG-PKG, if April 17th will pass, as we non-believers posit, without incident?
February 24th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
If nothing happens, I’d tend to concur with our host that they’ll just likely splinter: some will lose faith, others will seek refuge in other CoGs, others will convert to more mainstream beliefs, and if Ron doesn’t just totally fade into obscurity (or cap himself or walk into self-destruction) some may still follow him if he tries to just bump dates back.
Hopefully he’ll just fess up, and not try to cling to any turmoil he stirs up with the pope here. They do seem to be fairly passive in their intentions regarding world affairs and God’s plan.
That being said, not to throw gas on WW and Jimmy’s fire, but Ron’s been drawing a lot of analogies between himself and Gideon, but never seems to mention that Gideon went on to return and slay all those who doubted him.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/judges/gideon_slaughters_his_own_people/jg08_13p15.html
Either way it stands to be quite fascinating as it unfolds; I’m considering writing a master’s thesis on it, assuming the world doesn’t end
February 24th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Jonathan!!!! BINGO! I couldn’t have said it better myself. I think people are awakening more and more to this. And here I thought I was the only one who thought this about a month ago, but now I see more and more having brains too coming out saying this. lol Thank you.
February 24th, 2008 at 3:47 pm
No feedback on The Seven Thunders then…
February 24th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
17th April :/
February 24th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
none of the relevant ministers by Ron’s account have died, if that’s what you mean on thunders, Claire.
There was a 6.6 and 6.8 earthquake recently, but no significant loss of life or property (of great size I mean, I’m sure it was significant to those affected).
And that’s just confirmation bias.
February 24th, 2008 at 4:25 pm
few more thoughts:
I do hope Bzygirl has just been too busy (ha ha I’m so clever) to post but has still been watching from the sidelines to correct us if I’ve misinterpreted Mr. Weinland’s words (and to demonstrate that CoG:PKG isn’t engaging in mileu control and discouraging her from talking to skeptical “outsiders”).
I’ve also noticed no one has linked any of this indisputable proof against BI, but WW has described it as “historically sketchy at best” implying it might be possible - and the argument could be made that a Biblical God, should he want the Lost Tribes to stay lost, could cover most (or all) tracks of their lineage.
It’s unfortunate that people might have used this to fuel racist sentiment, but Alberta (the province in Canada I’m from) sterilized the mentally retarded until the mid seventies based on faulty ideas of heredity, so ideas aren’t dangerous, more what you do with them.
February 24th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
Strange…Strange…
If he ‘knows’ that he is just fooling everybody (out of their money) then what is the point to make such a concrete date with no way out for himself? Especially if he ‘knows’ the fate of False Prophets within the Bible. Now if God would talk to me and would make me an end time Prophet I would definitely act much different then the way he does. He uses what has been
revealed to him by God boastfully(?) (never mind the yelling). Instead I would be sweating, having nightmares and begging God not to put this much responsibility on me but he just shrugs his shoulder and starts chopping tree…wow. He just sounds the ’same’ and un-inspired with everything he talks about. The plain as day obvious (mileu?) control is also very very much evident as he plays the ‘nice-guy.’ In Psychological terms I would compare this to Prophetic Masochism an un-afraid all or nothing I know it all way to….become famous?…? His goal I think is to show the other splinter groups that he was not afraid to stand up (in his perverted way) and declare himself an-end time prophet of god. If he is wrong then he will simply step down and make-way for the other splinter group self proclaimed prophets to take over to carry on with insanity. Therefore the responsibility is not COMPLETELY his own but it is >SHARED< amongst and between those false prophets. Just one of many excuses and escape routs to take…for a deranged mind.
February 24th, 2008 at 10:22 pm
thetruthcommitee Says
1. It gets members away from reading and gaining solid unerstand on their own about Scripture. (Ronald Weinland in his sermons, doesn’t preach or teach the Bible, he read passages and explains why “he” knows the real meaning and brushes over what the “false” teaching of all other churches say certain verses mean
I have never heard him say that “I am a sinner.” Even the non-Chrisitan can admit that they stumble from time to time. But Mr. Weinland is following in the footsteps over every WCG minister I have ever heard, in that they always have answers for “everyone else” but they can’t humble themselves. But I guess you don’t have to humble yourself when you are a prophet or Elijah or the end time apostle.
first of all you have not heard to many sermons i have been listening to them for about 8 mos. Every sermon i have heard i have used my bible…ive never seen any church try not backing up what they say not using a bible except the cathic church
Also Ron does not claim in any way that he is a perfect man, even though his job is important he has to still obey God and live his life as best he can. He has been sick and had tooth aches over the past several mos. so he does not say he is perfect and tells others they will still sin and have trials.
Weinland Watch Says
“You don’t have to look anything up, you don’t have to go read anything you just know it’s true.”
The quote is taken from the “45 Days to the Seventh Seal” sermon Weinland gave on Feb. 9th. The context of the quote is that Weinland promotes the idea that “the holy spirit” will put in your mind that what he is saying is true
first of all im not disputing the fact that Ron says this and has said this several times over the past 8 mos. Everytime he says this he is refering to things every christian has read in their bible…ie God made the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th day and blessed that day. Now that is not a direct quote from Ron but he is talking about the 7th day sabath anyone who believes their is a God belives that the 7th day is the sabath day….but somewhere in time most ppl starting going to church on sunday(the first day of the week got its name from the sungod (baal)) so Rons point in saying u don’t have to look it up you know its true is because what every he is talking about (9 times out of 10 about the sabath day) you have already known this is true because you have read it or heard the bible storys as a kid.
I would also like to mention that Ron stresses that ppl should not only listen to the sermon on saturday but to draw closer to God by reading their bible, not just resting and watching tv.
February 24th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
Jonathon i would also like to say that i think you are way more crazy than Ron could ever be, even if he is proven wrong (i don’t think he will be but what if)….u said These power elites are planning to stage a second coming of Christ, as well as set up the beast and Anti-christ. They are playing both sides of a charade u also said, wants to explode real nuclear devices in seven U.S. cities simultaneously.
Now lets look at what you have said their are ppl out there who want to pretend Christ is coming back, they have a false profit and an anticrist. Now they have came to the US and talked to the government or the cia, and Ron Weinland and told them they want to make ppl think Christ is coming back so we are going to nuke 7 of your big important citys and be the cause of your demise…will you go along with it?
Like i said you are crazy for believing this garbage why would the USA agree to this what would they gain? Last time i checked the USA wants to make every nation a “free nation” how would blowing us up help china and rusia change thier ways and not try to take us over?
February 25th, 2008 at 12:31 am
dewayne - “first of all you have not heard to many sermons i have been listening to them for about 8 mos. Every sermon i have heard i have used my bible…”
Ron has you follow along with him in your bible (like Armstrong’s “don’t believe me, believe your bible!”), but he’s very adamant about you needing him to interpret it.
Several times he’s stated that your duty on the Sabbath is to receive his sermons. He states plainly that you can’t gain understanding by reading the bible on your own, you need to receive God’s weekly message to His people through His one and only Church - him.
February 25th, 2008 at 7:26 am
Renton, if you are trying to disprove the overwhelming evidence of The Seven Thunders, you’ll have to do better than a few, poorly-researched outbursts. RW is the only person to EVER describe what they are and where they fit in to the End Time Prophecies. For arguments sake I’ll list them below, just for anyone that is new or anyone like yourself, who claims to have read the books but clearly hasn’t in depth.
1) Terror of War - started with 9/11 and has progressivley gotten worse, i think you will agree.
2) Earthquakes - It says that the human loss of life would increase from natural disasters. Boxing Day 2004 Tsunami and Pakistan. They were no ordinary earthquakes. 80,000 people died in Pakistan and 283,100 people died from due to the Tsunami. There are also many earthquakes happening all over the world all the time. They are simply not reported because they are too numerous. Google it!
3) Destructiveness from weather - Remember those pesky hurricaines you guys experienced a few years ago? Australian bush fires? Floods in the UK, Ice Storms in the US, snowstorms in China? . All completely out of character for the areas. Over a period of two years there has been over 400,000 deaths from earthquakes.
4) Global Economic Upheaval - pretty undeniable.
5) Death - a) Death within the Church of God of the scattered ministers.
b) Death of notable people worldwide
c) Sudden escalation of death worldwide due to plagues
I know you are trying to disprove this because of two main gentleman who have been spoken about specifically. Apart from this which has not yet happened, but it will, there have still been deaths of ministers within the Church of God since 2005. I can provide you with details later if necessary. In fact the ones who have died have all been members of the same church, The Living Church of God, whom i believe these two gentlemen are also affiliated with. I presume as you did not refute the other two parts of this thunder, you see that they are on the increase too.
6) Growing Revelation of God’s End-Time Witnesses - The revelation of the fact that RW is in fact a prophet of God and the spokesman for The Two Witnesses. The fact that we are even here at all discussing this shows that at least some people are aware that this could well come true. They would not spend all day trying to refute what is being said and pick faults in what RW is saying if this wasn’t the case.
7) Accelerated Revelation of God To Man - God is going to start revealing himself more fully to mankind than he ever has before. This will be the Revelation of God’s plan through his Two Witnesses. But sadly much of the church and the world will reject the identity or the very idea of them. Some people will be awakened from a spiritual sleep and realise that what is being said is true. I guess that is where we are now.
February 25th, 2008 at 7:50 am
dewayne- Trust me, I fully understand that what I am saying sounds insane, however with a little in depth research and open mindedness things begin to be clear. We have got to start looking at the bigger picture. You are exactly right the U.S. (the people) would not gain anything. If people of power wanted to have full control they must take over the population, and there are different ways in which they can complete this task: 1) they can take over by force rapidly as in militarily or a coupe, which has been tried before and they know it does not work. They know that it is only a matter of time before the people will revolt against them. 2) If you take a much slower “creeping incremental” approach, this is far more effective. The trick is to get the people to want to be controlled! Now I am no Star Wars buff, but since most people have seen these movies I will use one scene as an example. The emperor states that he is eliminating the senate and setting up the empire in the name of safety and security; then the princess states (something to the effect) so this is how liberty dies, with thunderous applause. The movie “V for Vendetta” is another good example. The illusion of national sovereignty is an illusion they want you to see, because remember the saying,”divide and conquer” or “united we stand, divided we fall.” Isn’t the ultimate goal to unite humanity and have world peace, well we can’t do that if we have countries all over the world within their nation stating united we stand. If you have a bunch of different groups saying they are united(national sovereignty), that by definition is division. Once you have this division the individual nation has outside threats to deal with. If you have a threat that is so big, then in the name of safety and security you clamp down on the population (martial law.) At this particular stage in history the so-called threat is terrorism. I am not saying that terrorism does not exist, but it is rather a creation of the power elite. This is why it is so important to understand what really happened on 9/11. Remember, “divide and conquer.” masking the lie with so-called truth, the Freemasons say”order out of chaos,” the Jesuits say “black is white and white is black.” Ronald Weinland is just another one of their scams (if in fact what he says actually comes true, or he could just be another typical false prophet.) Only time will tell. A good start is looking at 9/11, watch any number of documentaries on 9/11: “Improbable Collapse” “Loose Change,” “9/11-the road to Tyranny.” God bless you in your search.
February 25th, 2008 at 8:47 am
ClaireUK:
You wish us to discuss “the seven thunders” with you but you do not wish us to refute them. I regret that I will not be able to discuss this with you in a manner that will be purposeful for both of us (I will not be able to un-convert you, and you will not be able to convert me).
I would like to discuss Weinland’s prediction that “Iron Rod” Meredith will be dead by the end of February. The clock is running out for this prediction to come true.
Do you think Weinland will declare himself a false prophet if March 1 rolls around and Meredith is still giving pop-eyed “I told you so!” prophecies-in-hindsight on Tomorrow’s World?
Will you still believe Weinland’s prophecies, if Meredith is still alive after the end of February?
February 25th, 2008 at 8:59 am
No I didn’t wish to discuss them with any of you Weinland Watch, I was merely discussing the fact that the Left Behind series doesn’t mention them and if people in the scattered church ( as you said) think that things are going to unfold exactly as it was written in those books, that’s disturbing. That was all. I’ve written the Seven Thunders down so whoever who reads this can see a brief overview of what they are. Not just the fact that Rod’s going to die, which seems to be the only thing you guys are hanging on to.
February 25th, 2008 at 9:05 am
ive never heard ron say that those preachers would be dead by the end of febuary….not that he has said something diff but i assumed that it would be right before April 17th to catch the attention of the scattered church
February 25th, 2008 at 9:12 am
No he hasnt said that about February dewayne you are right, but it’s easier for them to pick a date out of the sky so they can disprove what Ron is saying. Either that or they are listening to a totally different set of sermons!
February 25th, 2008 at 9:32 am
A direct quote from Weinland’s Interview Comments page:
“As the leader of the Living Church of God, Roderick Meredith is mentioned as one of many ministers who will die as a result of the prophesied Fifth Thunder.”
Any response ClaireUK?
February 25th, 2008 at 9:37 am
From pages 101-103 of God’s Final Witness:
“#5 The Fifth Thunder is death.”
) in order to help humble mankind so they will repent and turn to God.”
——————
“This Fifth Thunder is divided into three specific phases of death. (1) The first phase is death within the Church of God that was scattered. It will be specifically about a marked increase in the death of its leadership (the ministry).
———————–
“(1) This first phase of this Fifth Thunder has already begun in a very small way upon the Church of God that was scattered, after the prophesied apostasy (2 Thes.).
———————-
“This phase of the Fifth Thunder is one of my own choosing, which God has granted me as part of His own will and purpose for the Church (this will be clarified more fully in the Sixth Thunder). The method of this one last great chastening, that is for the purpose of helping to awaken some from the spiritual coma they are in, is one that God has left for me to determine as one of His end-time witnesses, who will be given far greater power to pronounce plagues “as often as they will” (Revelation 11:6
The LCG members are freaking out, saying Weinland has called in some sort of fatwa on Meredith. That’s just ludicrous, and I certainly don’t believe that (matter of fact I think Weinland is proving very adept at covering his butt either way it pans out), but he does say very clearly, from the quote above, that Rod Meredith will be dead, and the “fifth thunder” is supposed to be finished (according to the book you keep exhorting us all to read) by the end of February.
So I ask again: If Rod Meredith is not dead by the end of February, will you still believe that Ronald Weinland is one of the two witnesses?
I am not trying to de-convert you with the question, I am genuinely curious in hearing your answer.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:16 am
Weinland Watch
Each thunder will progressivley grow louder and more pronounced as we approach The Seventh Seal. It is not a case of one coming and being completed then onto the next, so definitely dunno where you get your Feb information from. The reason for the 5th thunder is to awaken a portion of the scattered church as dewayne correctly pointed out. There is no evidence of Ron saying that this will be completed in any length of time, just in God’s time and coming to a culmination around the opening of the Seventh Seal. The point of it is to show the scattered church and eventually the world, where and through whom God is working at this end time.
So you won’t mind if I don’t answer you’re question above, seeing that it is false in it’s nature and has never been claimed?
February 25th, 2008 at 12:13 pm
There are many, many. many ways to exploit the opening of the 7th seal to his own interpretation and prolonging the failed prediction even further (obviously)
He can cherry-pick words out such as:
“…he was >givenfilledprepared< themselves to sound.”
So now he can interpret this as a PREPARATION before the destruction. How long does God’s servants prepare for? Well only he knows that! Silly!
Oh and must not forget about “there was silence in heaven for about the space of half an hour” oh boy oh boy what will he do with that I wonder…..
February 25th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
I have to briefly agree with Claire before I disagree with her:
I have never come across Ron saying the thunders would be completed by February - so if you can quote him on that, I’d be interested to see; otherwise, you’d doing the straw man fallacy by disproving what he didn’t say.
But Claire wants to discuss the thunders, so lets:
1 - terror of war: this one’s a gimme. I guess not living as close to the states, you’re maybe not aware of how self centered Americans are. 9/11 was tragic, but more people have died in the war that resulted from that act of terrorism than from the actual act itself. These people have never had domestic terrorism on an appreciable scale, and they’re scared shitless. This is little more than taking advantage of that paranoia. It’s about as informative as the color defense level scheme they promptly scrapped.
2 - earthquakes: classic confirmation bias. Let me make a prediction: there will be a thunderstorm today. Hey look, there were over a thousand of them today worldwide. I must be psychic.
3 - weather: again, confirmation bias. You don’t need to be a prophet to know the weather’s getting worse - watch the weather channel! Or better, watch “An Inconvenient Truth” - or attend public school the past 20 years or so, where they’ve been warning us of the repercussions of global warming.
4 - economics: fair enough, not many people could have predicted the dollar would crash as dramatically as it has (and will) especially as long ago as he did. That was a few decades coming, but most people were ignorant of the signs. Seeing as he doesn’t seem too concerned with the markets, I doubt he was aware of tip-offs there, but this is a gray area at best.
5 - death: this one’s inevitable - everyone dies! Celebrities (with their hi-octane lifestyles) tend to drop on a regular basis.
I’m unaware (quite possibly through ignorance - feel free to correct me) of any sudden spike in disease fatalities.
Which brings us to his one and only specific prediction other than “April 2008″ - death of the ministry.
If less prominent members of the CoG ministry have died, I would definitely grant that as evidence for his case, and would love more details if you have them. But unless they die in some “newsworthy” way, people outside of the church don’t hear about them, so what we need is either one of the two he specified, OR something dramatic, preferably both.
6 - revelation of witnesses: this one’s a little self fulfilling isn’t it? If I spent $5500/mo on google ads saying I was Santa Claus, there’d probably be a blog debating my mental sanity as well. Send in your tithes to keep the thunder rolling.
7 - revelation of God to man: sadly, spiritual things are hard to point to and say “here’s evidence” and if Armstrong is Ron’s watermark for revealing the true God to the world, Ron’s got a ways to go. Granted, should his predictions come true, I’m sure he’d rocket to international notoriety. But if his predictions for April come true, these thunders are going to be pretty meaningless at that point.
I’m sorry if you feel I’m Ron-bashing; I’m actually trying to help his cause. If you didn’t bother to read my history post, I actually *want* Ron to be right - I grew up believing this stuff. I’m not looking forward to the 7th seal and I don’t want CoG ministers dead, but I would like some evidence before I believe.
The problem is, the more I try to verify CoG doctrine, the more counter evidence I come across, so I take it to those who believe and ask, “how does this fit into Ron’s paradigm?”
If the Thunders are all you need to believe, I bet you’d have made the psychic friends network a lot of money back in the day too - I’d like my prophet from God to be more accurate than my horoscope.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:21 pm
? Something strange happened when I pasted the text. Maybe it’s because I was using the symbols?
So anyways the above corrected should read.
He can cherry-pick words out such as:
…he was *given* much incense…
…*filled* it with fire from the altar…
And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets *prepared* themselves to sound.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Oh ok I see, the “less than” “more than” signs this bulleting board interprets as HTML code…
February 25th, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Firestorm: for those who listen, Ron (and bzygirl) have already used up their half hour of silence:
March 18th - the Seventh Seal opens.
30 days = 30 minutes silence
April 17th - 1st trumpet of Seventh Seal blows.
I don’t know why he didn’t go for passover as the 7th seal, +1260 days = feast of trumpets 2011.
But he’s the prophet, he sets the dates; unless I’m putting words in his mouth, but we have no verification by congregation members.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:30 pm
Firestorm,
Yep, < and > are reserved symbols in your comments here. You can use them to enclose tags to get italics, bold, blockquotes, links, etc., per HTML. But if you want to include literal < or > in your text, you must use the HTML entity format to get them:
< = <
> = >
Hope this helps.
February 25th, 2008 at 12:35 pm
so that’s how people have been using italics and whatnot - thanks firestorm. Do you know how they’re impeding links in their text too?
February 25th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
ah - blond moment.
February 25th, 2008 at 1:00 pm
Renton,
I suggest you start here. A lot of work for a little bit of italics and links in your comments, but HTML is the lingua franca of the web, and I think everyone should know at least a little.
February 25th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Ok just checking, so the dates are indeed set in stone. Very weird.
Now in his book when he say about the First Trumpet:
“Most of it will be the death of animals and birds, but also a large number of people will die—into the tens of thousands.” (In U.S. and Canada of course)
Then what is the point to mentioning the birds?? and animals? is it not that in this scenario human life is more important and would demand more immediate attention? Why would I care about those so many birds and animals? (well of course if you are an animal rights activist then you may have a different view - with apologies to those working in that field)
February 25th, 2008 at 1:39 pm
I agree - human death is certainly going to be more “attention grabbing” if nothing else, but I think the point is that it will start a famine when all our feeder animals die and have no grass to eat - sorta wiping out the bottom tiers of the food pyramid we stand on.
February 25th, 2008 at 2:21 pm
I didnt know that people believed in the “Left Behind” series as FACT though - whoa. Surely anyone can see they are FICTION. Where is God the Father, the Creator of all Mankind, the one who is going to stop us from completely annihilating ourselves, ever mentioned?
The Left Behind are certainly ficition in the terms of character names, certain location names, certain goverment agency names, etc. However all of it is prophecy interpretation.
And to answer your question, yes, the series does more than touch on God ending WWIII. God will step in and end it before that miliaries involved totally destroy the earth. Ronald Weinland has that much correct.
What he doesn’t have correct is his teachings on salvation, the trinity, heaven, hell etc.
And I don’t think anyone is trying “change” anyone’s mind here. I think, though, there are some very good input on this blog.
Keep in mind, there is a reason why Herbert Armstrong’s name keeps popping up. I don’t think IronWold would have started this entire thing, had it not been for the fact that Mr. Armstrong’s teachings are pretty much responsible for everything Ronald Weinland is trying do here.
If, Claire, you have only been involved in Mr. Weinland’s teachings for 6 months and want to really know the truth– I would suggest taking what Ron has to say–his books, sermons and inerviews and put them on a shelf for a couple of days and study Herbert Armstrong.
I am sure you will find that what Ronald is teaching is exactly what Armstrong taught from the 30s until he died in 1986.
And when you research it, also do a quick study of British-Israelism. It’s the cornerstone of what Herbert Armstrong taught. Without it, what Ronald Weinland would be able to make these claims today. The problem with British-Israelism is that it’s more than “sketchy” as someone put it. It’s impossible. I won’t go into it here, but enough documented proof exists on studies that have been done on the subject that have proven it false.
I think people on this site do have a valid concern for followers of Ronald Weinland, rather than trying to make anyone change their minds and adopt their views. This isn’t that at all. That’s actually what Ronald Weinland is doing. His constant claims about all of the other belief systems in the world, his outlandish claims against the Catholic Church, etc. are his attempt, just as they were Armstrongs to get people to keep looking for errors in the Bible in order to prove themselves correct.
This site, from what I can tell has some very good points. However, and I don’t mean any disprespct, but most believers in Ronald Weinland’s messages here, haven’t given me any solid ground to go on as far as “why” they believe him. Believing in something just because you feel “things line up” is a very shaky leg to try to stand on. Not that you deserve to be attacked for that, but you owe it to yourself, if you are a Ronald Weinland believer to thoroughly check the facts before you believe in something. Do this to protect yourself. I know Ronald says his books are proof and they will start “proving” him correct as “things begin to unfold” but that certainly isn’t a field tested argument.
The fact remains is that Ronald Weinland’s “evangelical” background is in an organization that had some very serious flaws when it came to Bible prophecy, so much so that no one of the predictions made by it have ever come true.
February 25th, 2008 at 2:55 pm
To Renton:
I like your last few posts, especially how you numbered your points.
If you look at the Worldwide Church of God’s past, it’s a bit strange at best. And if you look at the power struggles that went on in that church shortly before and certainly after (they are still going on) Mr. Armstrong died, it’s easy to see which ministers were at the forefront of the chaos. Roderick Meredith and Gerald Flurry, who are both nutjobs in my opinion, both went on to start large splinter groups. Flurry and Meredith are still on mainstream Chrisitian television. I just say The Key of David last night as I flipped though the channels. Meredith is still going as well.
If you look at Ronald Weinland’s history in the church, you won’t find much. I wish someone would find some information on this guy, other than what I have. From what I know, Mr. Weinland was not in a highly ranking pastoral position while he was in the WCG. My sources tell me he has always been a bit of an outcast and someone that has always presented himself to be on a much bigger level than he’s actually on.
He preaches and stands behind every bit of written work that Armstrong published. In fact, allegations of Weinland violationg copyright laws have been brought to my attention as of late. Gerald Flurry owns the publishing rights to Mystery of the Ages and fought the new WCG for them, as they were going to make it so the book could never be published again. Meredith, from what I know, has rights to some works, but I don’t know exactly what. But I know for fact that much of the literature of old is still property of the WCG, or Gerald Flurry to this day. The WCG won’t distribute it because it has denounced Armstrong. Flurry keeps a tight grip on things over there at PCG. I just wonder, because I know he’s doing it, where Mr. Weinland is getting permission from to use these works.
I have also heard from some sources that Mr. Weinland has had some emotional issues in the past that have included some bouts with some serious mental illness. Has anyone else heard this?
February 25th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
And I’m pretty sure those in his “cult” are well aware that every sermon he preaches the lies of other denominations, including the other CoGs, because he truly believes God is only working through him right now to accomplish His works
Delusions of grandeur often come to those who are exposed to something long enough and have been taught to believe something regardless of whether or not it’s true. When one is pumped full of ego for many years, such as “you are part of the ONLY group on EARTH that God is working with” and that the millions and millions of other people are WRONG” a person may become open to some serious emotional conditions and totally illogical ways of thinking. This often evolves into some sort of megalomanic state of mind.
Ronald Weinland sure seems to have some symptoms. His books and sermons allike are so full of rage, anger and ego, they are busting at the seems.
I just finished listening to “Coming out of Traditional Christianity Part 2″ and “45 Days to the 7th Seal” and am convinced that Ronald needs some help. From a professional standpoint, he’s not speaking about any God I have ever heard of a completely different Jesus Christ. What he, in my opinion, is doing is ttempting to channel his anger, confusion and his very low self esteem toward other people outside his broken belief system. What Mr. Weinland believes, again, is not new. None of it.
I won’t say too much on my church, but I will say that I have read Weinland’s book and he is not speaking of God or for Him. He’s preaching a borderline racist doctrine.
February 25th, 2008 at 4:21 pm
Ironwolf, you’ll be pleased to know that I’m keeping this contribution short and to the point. To the guy who’s trying to tell me about reading HWA works, I already looked into them because he was mentioned so much in Ron’s sermons. No doubt this will appall you, but I believe he was the prophesied End Time Elijah, who is in fact an apostle rather than a prophet. I don’t remember ANY literature in which HWA proclaimed to be such. The prophet was meant for the time of the end and would reveal The Seven Thunders and judging by Romans 13:1-14
, it’s only him we should be listening to. I am looking at this with a fresh pair of eyes remember, I am new to all this. 
February 25th, 2008 at 4:51 pm
Claire,
I believe I told you to read “about” Armstrong. His works are no different than Mr. Weinland’s.
Armstrong did make claims of being a prophet. Armstrong, what you have to remember, wrote hundreds of pieces. Some of these pieces were printed with bylines that indicated that other people had written them. Herbert Armstrong had input in every piece of written work that was published. He was the managing publisher.
Armstrong, many times in sermons, on television and on the radio called himself a prophet and apostle. He used to scream things like “God is speaking directly to you THROUGH ME! He send ME here to bring you this message!”
Like I said, take an objective approach and do some research about Armstrong from an outsider’s point of view. I think you will shocked at what you find. Start with the hundreds of prophecies that didn’t come true and all of the things he had his members scrambling to do in order to get ready for at least 2 or 3 second comings and at least 10 or 20 “great tribulations.” It’s quite the story.
And Claire, what makes you so sure Ronald Weinland is who he says he is?
February 25th, 2008 at 5:09 pm
God does
February 25th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Ok, well I guess, although trite, a good answer. But what has God given to make you come to that conclusion.
I can give you a hundred or a perhaps more reasons why what Ronald Weinland teaches does not line up with the Bible.
I am simply asking because you seem like you have a solid head on your shoulders and I am curious as to why you would expect anyone to rest their cases after hearing what has given you these truthful elightenments.
You have only been involved for a short time, how did you stumble upon Ronald Weinland?
February 25th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
Aroundthehorn,
I lapsed from the Catholic faith at 18 (I’m 26 now) I never stopped believing in God and started my quest for truth (whatever that was!) by reading the Bible for the first time ever. I loved it! And realised I had been lied to all my life in my previous religious affiliations. I became interested in the Book of Revelation and it’s prophecies and for 7 years i researched and read numerous interpretations and Christian belief systems. I arrived at the fact that the Sabbath was important to be recognised of God but apart from that my head was pretty fuddled by everything I’d read. I came across RW’s books completely by accident one night and started to I have ever had. I feel for the first time in my life that I am at peace, and full of strength spiritually even though the Seventh Seal is knocking on the door! And i can’t explain that.
February 25th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
hmm sorry, a bit of my post is missing there so the last bit doesn’t make sense, but i hope you catch my drift.
February 25th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
to the person who said something about a racist doctrine:
Do you mean that because Weinland and Herbie Amrstong taught British Israelism?
I can tell you that many hate groups, especially the Aryan goups actually believe in British Israelism and some of them use it to give credit to Hitler.
I have only read a few chapters of Ronald Weinland’s new book. I did read the first one. I don’t how this man expects everyone to believe him.
I became a Christian in 1995. If “traditional” Christianity is so false, then how do I explain being delivered from the destructive–both phyically life I was living? How do I explain the countless times I have prayed and have been answered?… sometimes God answers in differnt ways than I would like him to but he never goes without answering prayer.
There’s not many Chrisitan points of view here and I want to add one. I know an atheist here may think I am cracked, but being a Christian is way more involved than just following a bunch of laws. Being a Christian is a daily, spiritually interactive walk with God. It’s very real.
When I was 24 years old, I didn’t need God. I thought I had it all. A good job, a good girl, a nice car, etc. But what I found out was I didn’t have God. I knew I needed something else in my life, but I didn’t know what it was. So I got married. –to the wrong woman and we ended up getting a divorce. I started drinking, spending money and I found myself cursing the very name of Jesus because in my mind this great God would not let me go through such horrible times.
Well, I met a friend who invited me to a Bible study and the very first week I went, I sat in the back and just listened. The second week, there was no study as there was a guest minister preaching at the church that. I had no idea this man was going to be there. I thought I was going to just sit in the back of the men’s Bible study again. But I stayed and listened to a sermon and about God accepting EVERYONE just as they are and that no matter what you may be going through, what Christ did on the cross was bigger… much bigger than any problem I could be facing. I didn’t fully understand it until I got home. After three hours of reading the scripture of what the sermon was on, I fell to my knees and cried out to God and asked Jesus to accept me– a drunken 24 year old divorced and broken man who’d been to church maybe 10 times in my entire life. I never kept the Sabbath, I didn’t even know what it was. I never gave 10 cents to a church. But God delivered me.
A year after that night, I met a Christian woman at another concert. We recently celebrated out 10 year anniversary and our 9 yr old just said she wants to ask Jesus into her heart.
How do I explain this? How would I be able to believe anything Herbert Armstrong or Mr. Ron Weinland, Flurry, or anyone else in that WCG taught knowing PERSONALLY that the Bible and what they call “traditional” Chrisitianity is very very real?
Have I been fed a lie?
February 25th, 2008 at 6:51 pm
The majority of Christian Churches don’t teach about the establishment of God’s Kingdom on this earth. Like it or not they are all splintered from the Catholic Church anyway, which was established about 370 AD. Once you come to understand how they changed the Sabbath to Sunday and how much this offends God, it changes your whole outlook. I don’t deny that you have felt God’s presence in your life at all. I felt it when i wasn’t affiliated with any church for nearly 8 years so I know what you mean. But don’t write these books off before you have read them. And be willing to admit that some of the things you have been taught all your life, may indeed be wrong. God knows I had to!
February 25th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Fitnottrim,
Yes. But it’s a lie that’s working for you, so I say go with it. And keep following the Golden Rule.
February 25th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Here is a little background information about Ron. In the mid 80’s, Ron came to live in Erie, PA and was a pastor for brethern in Erie and Franklin, PA. I remember one incident involving Ron speaking to his congregation in Franklin and getting so upset that he stormed out of the Knights of Columbus hall, slamming the door behind him. This was the result of people talking while he was giving his sermon. I was only a teenager, but I remember this vividly. Another incident involved Ron building himself a home in Erie. He gathered all of the talent from the congregation, electricians, masonary workers, roof layer, etc. The congregation built him a home and shortly after they finished building this home, he put it on the market and sold it for his own personal profit (gain). I know there was a lot of talk and resentment that was felt by these two congregation, especially after he had left so suddenly. Six months later, he announced that he was being transferred to Toledo, OH. There he remained with the Worldwide Chuch of God. Later separating himself from the (WCG) and joining the United Church of God. He was a minister in the (UCG) for a short time and separated himself from this organization because there was over 5 million dollars that came up missing. I guess he was one of the unfortunate ministers who did not receive his cut and was upset, angry and distraught. Ron was also a very gifted fund raiser. I remember attending fund raising activities and being part of mass producing 1000’s of fruit baskets that the congregation had sold. I know he is very gifted and talented, especially with money and business.
February 25th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
For ClaireUK, I present to you the words of Herbert W. Armstrong himself.
The 1975 That Never Was
Additionally, you have not remarked on Weinland’s comment on his Interview Comments page:
“As the leader of the Living Church of God, Roderick Meredith is mentioned as one of many ministers who will die as a result of the prophesied Fifth Thunder.”
I repeat the question: If Meredith does not die, will you still believe Weinland is a prophet?
I, too, wish BizyGirl would return here and post. I hope wherever she is and whatever she may be doing, that she is well.
February 25th, 2008 at 10:18 pm
Jonathan,
Pretty lonely down here at the bottom of the Rabbit Hole, isn’t it?
February 25th, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Sam,
hate to be nitpicky, but isn’t the Knights of Columbus a catholic fraternity? I doubt Weinland would be caught dead in anything remotely associated with the Catholic church.
Claire,
While I respect your right to your beliefs, I can’t agree with you, and your last comment does not sit well with me. I would argue that almost ALL Christian Churches (I say almost because I don’t claim to know who claims to be Christian and who doesn’t) teach about the establishment of God’s Kingdom on this earth. This is the whole premise! Jesus Christ is GOD and he will return to Earth to establish his Kingdom on earth.
February 25th, 2008 at 11:37 pm
Sitting on the side-lines here nervously watching my calendar :/ I was wondering same RC, the Knights of Columbus ??? LOL
February 26th, 2008 at 12:24 am
First, I should correct myself before someone else does:
Having listened to “45 Days to the Seventh Seal” again, I don’t see how I forgot how disgusted I was when I first heard it.
He say