According to Ron Weinland, 27 days remain until the Great Tribulation is supposed to begin in earnest. Traffic is picking up on the discussion here— a sign of The End, or a sign of the power of Google? You decide.
Part 1 Basic info and links.
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5 FAQ
Part 6
Part 7
Mine. I made her comment the latest post.
okay got it, thank you!
trey – not to beat a dead horse with and old stick (sorry ‘Wolf) but here’s a nice little summation on the matter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFrkjEgUDZA
I love these videos. This one shows how believing the bible before God’s own creation is a form of idoltry.
Hi Trey;
Thanks for putting your $.02 cents in. I appreciate your position as I held it myself for many years.
Rather than dissecting your arguments, which would require a good deal of time as some of them (no offense) are either non-sequiturs or based on straw man fallacy, let’s just start with one simple precept:
“The Bible is complete!”
Please state Biblical support for this statement. Not conjecture. Not assumption. Evidence from within scripture itself.
I could save you some time if you like and forewarn you that such a feat is not possible, as the authors of the Bible had no idea they were writing “a bible” per-se, excusing the obvious play on words. So, any statement from within the text itself that excludes the inclusion of ‘additional’ text is simply impossible. Such a statement would by its very nature be included in the very last “sentence” of the cannonized Bible — or at the very least in the last book written.
And so, we are back to Revelation — a book you claim by assertion that some “authorities” have mangled into a falsified truth by asserting the (gasp) evidence of time of authorship.
We therefore have two possible conclusions:
1. The book of Revelation was indeed the last book ever penned by a God-inspired author. If this is the case, then the book itself would surly make reference to this fact as there were dozens of books written ‘after’ Revelation that were excluded from the Latin Vulgate version of the LXX which was approved by the all-too human Council of Trent in 1546. Mind you, this was fifteen hundred years after the fact.
As Penn & Teller humorously point out, the biographers of Elvis, both of whom knew him personally, couldn’t get his favorite fried chicken recipe right a mere 10 years after his death. Imagine 1500 years.
The “Bible” prior to this would involve a history lesson that would take up the space of this blog. But, in the interest of time: literally dozens of books were excluded from the time of Ptolemy all the way to the time of the Council of Trent. Each of these debates, exclusions, myriad translations (there were many significant translations prior to the Latin Vulgate), and so-forth were the product of the very same scholars and experts you knock.
They were equally NON-unanimous in their conclusions as today’s ‘experts’ are. They were equally devout, or perhaps even more-so than today’s scholars. And, many wanted Revelation excluded. The decision for this was decided by MAN, not by God, in a series of meetings leading up to the Council of Trent. No amount of pandering, wishful thinking, or revulsion of logic will change these historical facts.
And, Revelation in no way and in no verse suggests the end of “the Bible”, or rather inspired scripture written by inspired men. Of course, if you really understand the ‘context’ of Revelation, you would see the irony of this fact from the word ‘go’ — literally from the first few verses of Revelation. But hell, what do I know. I only wrote a masters thesis on the subject. ; )
2. Some other book was the “last book of God” so-to-say and would, by necessity, include some illusion to this fact.
Perhaps you can build your argument on the historical facts from here. Please try not to use errant logic such as, “God wouldn’t have to SAY this was the end of scripture!”, etc. The fact remains that in no scripture, no where, is the book you now refer to as “The Bible” indicted as a closed system.
P.S. After we tackle this relatively simple request, we can delve into evidence ‘against’ the spiritual authorship of The Bible. In order to do this, you will have to agree to conform to the rules of reason and logic by asserting your parameters on what would be necessary to constitute (a) divine authorship; and (b) non-divine authorship. Otherwise we are in for a colossal waste of time. If you will grant these two parameters, I can almost guarantee that the discussion will be very productive and not relegated to mere “belief” for a rational conclusion.
Please adhere to history — the very book you claim to be inspired by God (and God’s only and final word to man) went through these same parametrical questions for hundreds of years. This is the only reason you hold a single book in your hands today.
If God is indeed the author, this is the very same methodology he “inspired” in others to produce the final result that you yourself claim to be definitive. All I’m asking is that you backtrack these results and deliver your own criteria and how you arrived at your conclusion.
This is really not asking that much given all that is at stake. I will, of course, do the same.
Refusal to determine criteria that would prove any book of supposed scripture to be “false” would not only betray your Christian ancestors responsible for the Bible you now hold to be the inclusion of all true scripture, but would also make ANY text presented with enough “feel-good willies” viable as inspired by God.
We’ll not concern ourselves with other equally viable texts such as The Koran, The Book of Mormon, and so-forth: Just The Bible will do.
Again, (1) what is your criteria for acceptance of written text as divinely inspired by the God of Abraham?, and (2) what is your criteria for judging other texts as false accounts?
Thanks Trey.
Jon
If I am not mistaken (and somebody correct me if I am wrong) Weinland believes that “UFOs” are demons. Why would he label all the UFOs as demons? Why would he not think that some are demons and some are angels?
Most whacko prophet types believe that aliens would naturally be nothing more than demons if they were to show themselves. Can you imagine the confusion? This falls right in line with bouts of epilepsy and psoriasis being mistaken for demon possession and leprosy in the early church.
If you don’t understand what it is, it must be from the devil. This is especially true of anything that challenges scriptural truths.
Given this assertion, I have no doubt that Hannah Montana is a demon from the darkest pits of the seventh circle of hell itself.
Trey said:
Yes, I would expect far, far “less” from my parents than permanent exclusion from their love and presence and an eternity of torture because I failed to understand or accept one edict, despite my overwhelming attempt to do so.
Color me silly.
To carry the analogy of “father” further: I would expect my father to go a bit more than out of his way to share this edict with me if I was, say, stranded on a remote island for the entirety of my existence. That would be very loving of him. To not do so (say, not bothering with millions of native americans between Time Zero and 1492) would be an act of utter cruelty and demonstrate a dismal lack of anything resembling “love”.
And, to capitalize on this even further, I would consider my father an utterly worthless pile of feces if he refused to do this and then have the audacity to refer to himself as the incarnation of love itself using the same word and definition as accepted by me and my fellow “brothers.”
But hey, that’s me and my stupid, frail, flawed, ‘human’ definition of what it means to be a good parent.
If you are a parent, I would enjoy hearing everything your son or daughter would have to do in order for you to not only reject them for eternity but also actively and willingly torture them for the duration.
Please Trey, I do humbly ask that you enlighten we pagans on the aspects of Christian parenting.
(I apologize Trey, but this is a sensitive issue to me as I have a great deal of compassion for how children are treated.)
Jon
I have to chime in on one point – and I mean no offense to anyone by this. I read so many people’s posts where they are either convinced Ron Weinland is a prophet, or not sure.. or even doubtful based on failed prophecies. That’s all fine and well, but have you ever really spent time with the man? I have. And I can tell you just what one member from Ron’s old post-United COG advisory board said on the day he explained why the church split, and what he said is true: the man lacks love. Enough said. No further proof needed.
For that man it wasn’t about greed, or about ambition, or hurt, or Ron’s need to control everything. He nailed it because he knew his BIble. It’s about love. And I agree 100%. This is how we know a person is from God – that he has agape love for his brother (I John 3: 10). Anyone who does not have agape love does not know God (I John 4: 8).
You look at every failed prophet and you’ll see one thing – their followers continue on following. The Bible calls us sheep, and so we are. It doesn’t matter what Ron’s next excuse is. There will be one, and it will work.
But if we’re here discussing Ron because in some way he affects our interpretation of the Bible or shakes our faith, then I assume you read the Bible, and I assume you have read “God is love” (I John 4: 8, 16). Tell me now how anyone without love can be from God? Read what love is: (I COR. 13: 4-8) Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease!!!
Does that describe Ron Weinland to you? If not, why go on talking about him? If his prophecies were accurate to 100%, but that up there doesn’t describe him, why go on talking about him?
Ron Weinland captures my attention because I want things to make sense.
AP wire has just posted a story that satellite images show the runaway disintegration of a 160-square-mile chunk in western Antarctica, which started Feb. 28. It was the edge of the Wilkins ice shelf and has been there for hundreds, maybe 1,500 years. It’s attributed to global warming. Man IS ruining the earth.
This huge piece of the world just fell into the sea. Maybe the “labor pains” ARE intensifying. Maybe love means doing the best you can to try to “save”people even if you do it in a misguided way.
Jon,
Hannah Montana is a bad example to make your point. She is a devout Christain … and will explain to you (and Barbara Walters) that THAT is the reason whe will NOT become the next Britney Spears.
Britney on the other hand … gave up Christianity for some Modonna one with earth crap and her live has been going down since.
Richard Saunders says:
“It doesn’t matter what Ron’s next excuse is. There will be one, and it will work.”
Ugh. Please don’t say that. That’s what we are trying to combat here!
“Does that describe Ron Weinland to you? If not, why go on talking about him? If his prophecies were accurate to 100%, but that up there doesn’t describe him, why go on talking about him?”
We are talking about him because, your assertions the contrary, Weinland is hurting people. Most assuredly. (If my Inbox could talk…….) People are being harmed, because they are giving up their minds and their money and their futures to Weinland and his ministers of misery, so Ron&Co can live extremely lavish lifestyles, in comparison to the members he’s taking money from, hand over fist, and the members are hanging, starry-eyed, onto the bright vision of a future that will never come, while they are suitably distracted from the utter misery of their present lives.
You say it isn’t about greed and ambition? Read my latest blog post. That is just the latest in a looooooong string of money-grubbing something-for-nothing renowned-as-a-”fundraiser” incidents Weinland has participated in, over the years, with WCG, UCG, and now CoG-PKG. It’s not about money? Then why do prospective members have to pay a “tithe” to be baptized?
We are talking about him so the truth will be out there. So people who go to the Internet and plug Weinland’s name, or the name of his church, into a search engine, will get the full story, not just the church’s own website and recruiting tools.
You think he isn’t harming people? Weinland is actively recruiting children. Well, okay, teenagers and young adults. You can’t tell me that’s not intentional. He speaks in his sermons about the division being caused between children and parents, because the parents are trying to keep their children out of Weinland’s dangerous group! And he’s proud of this. Weinland tells these teenagers and young adults that they have to fight for their beliefs.
There are too many children in this church.
From Ron’s book:
The first phase is death within the Church of God that was scattered. It will be specifically about a marked increase in the death of its leadership (the ministry).
This phase of the Fifth Thunder is one of my own choosing, which God has granted me as part of His own will and purpose for the Church.
The most notable deaths early on, which are yet to come to pass, will be the two remaining television presenters in the Living Church of God.
Has any of this come to pass?
To RichardSaunders:
The God of the Bible fails to meet many of these criteria, especially that whole “keeping no record of wrongs” bit. I would also deem it “rude” to kill the entire planet…but that’s me being silly again. ; )
To Listener:
The “labor pains” described in the bible have been going on for the past 2000 years. As for the Wilkins ice shelf…yes, this is scary to be sure. But history needs to be examined before the EOTW guys get all riled up.
Ten years ago a block a bit over half the size of the one under scrutiny dropped into the sea. Obviously nothing happened that was “catastrophic”, although the culmination of a very human global warming issue could very well be considered as such.
I would also point out that many EOTW folks cited the 1998 break as “labor pains” and a sign of the end times, blah blah etc. etc. They had a pretty strong case, what with 1999 right around the corner and all.
The Great Quake was a another biggie. WWII was perhaps the biggest scare, with Hitler being almost universally proclaimed as the “antichrist”.
If you want to “save” people, I suggest you cut back on your greenhouse emissions. At least start there and then work Jesus into the environmentally-friendly discourse. Or vice-versa, but try not to exclude the science bit for the sake of humanity, K?
Jon
Kurt,
Maybe the hitman is waiting for the check to clear first.
Nicely put Richard S
TodaysFate wrote:
TF,
You missed my rather funny jab at her ridiculous excuse for music. Being a musician, I’m a bit opposed to homogenized synthetic drivel. When I was a teen I was listening to a lot of the same stuff I listen to today some 25 years later. It was music that changed the world in so many ways. Even the more modern bands I admire are highly inspired musicians making more than a sonic toe-tapping impact on their listeners.
On the other hand, HM should consider herself lucky to change the shade of lipstick she’s wearing.
Yes, yes…that’s the reason for her demise. It certainly could never be the fact that she has the talent and musical vision of a piece of wet lettuce. It must be Jesus.
Wait. Small problem. Madonna is wildly popular while holding to her “Modonna (sic) one with earth crap” philosophy.
Damn those one-earthers!
Kurt asks:
[With regards to the Fifth Thunder] “Has any of this come to pass?”
Nope.
Jon, your responses are like a cool breeze on a hot summer’s day, simply excellent. It seems that a chain saw just can’t replace a good axe sometimes. It takes a bit longer, creates some blisters, but you can measure the progress. I’m glad you’re not a minister working in a CoG, or had the same “insight” to God that RW has. On the other hand maybe this Blog wouldn’t exist if that was the case.
An off topic question, concerning “Bibles”, have you ever heard, or examined the Kolbrin or Urantia books? Since this is off topic, unless you think there is some relevance to the discussion you can email me at statec@msn.com if you have any thoughts on those books.
Thanks, and sorry for the off topic question Ironwolf
Some of us reading and writing on this blog have family there – and family predicted to be among those who will be dropping dead soon (ministers in other splits) unless they repent. You know when some KOOK starts writing things like that about people you know and love – you should pay attention AND point out to people the real lives that are devastated by such horrendous writing. My sister along with her UNDER-AGE CHILDREN in RW’s group thinks my dad is going to die soon (minister in one of splinter group). Sorry if we give RW so much of our time and attention…but…hopefully it will be information needed to adequately work toward helping them de-program from the emotional AND spiritual damage done by this wacked out ‘man of god’ and that term is very loosely referenced.
Does anyone have any details about Ron’s lifestyle? I am curious about his home, vacation spots, boats, etc. If he is really in this for the money, how does he spend it? It seems like some people reading and writing on this blog know him rather personally. One who appeared to have experience with Ron said he didn’t get the feeling Ron is a gold digger. Crazy, or hateful maybe, but not a gold digger. Anyone?
Hi all…enjoyed reading everone’s heartfelt comments…I’ll go out on a limb here and say no one here lacks passion…personally my passion in life is the love for my children and I will go to the ends of the earth(no pun intended) to protect them…that said…I would not expose them intentionally to RW’s rants about the end time and how we will suffer through the great tribulation…I simply don’t believe in him being the end time prophet. I reject his beliefs and his dillusions, thank you very much! I’m “iffy” at best on whether there is a supreme being calling the shots…but I do believe we are headed for very turbulent times, but I also believe it’s not too late for us…we have the ability to slow it down and turn it around…because I do believe in HOPE and the HUMAN SPIRIT…I just have to look at my children to confirm that! So….I will continue to live my life with love and hope and still brace and prepare myself and my family for the rocky road ahead….bottled water doesn’t go bad and you can never have enough flashlights! AND if RW is right, maybe I should stock up on alot of toilet paper as well(they’ll be alot of shitting going on) lol
Hi RobertS;
Thanks for the kind words. Nothing like a good axe-style workout to get the heart pumping. Hopefully these posts come across with the relatively good-natured intention I carry. ; )
Seriously, my only objective is to help people think through some of the issue of faith. If they still come to the conclusion they currently have, no worries and no hard feelings. But at least I know I’ve held up my end of the intellectual bargain. I also hope to learn from others, both Christian and non. Wolf is a tremendous source of knowledge, as are many of the posters here.
I’ve never researched the other ‘holy books’ you mention. My study was primarily OT and NT and a bit of the Book of Mormon and The Koran — although I slept through most of the latter. I still find Islam so far behind reality from a cultural standpoint that it doesn’t warrant my time to challenge the confused.
Agnostics like myself would make for a lousy minister of any church, although I was a minister prior to deconversion. CoC, not CoG. Missed it by “that” much.
(And, btw Wolf, I apologize for the off-topic rants. I’ll try to refrain… ; )
Jon
Robbi;
‘but I do believe we are headed for very turbulent times’
Yes indeed, I also feel that is very much so. Many others may begin or already feel the same way. How convenient for an end time prophet looking to make some bucks.
Jon, thanks for the reply
I do think we humans have an innate need or desire to make “sense” of our world, but it still amazes me how in that persuit there are some who are so willing to stop thinking for themselves. It makes me wonder if in some cases they ever did. I personnaly don’t think those concepts should be mutually exclusive. We all rationalize, but at some point the “benefit of doubt” becomes almost silly. I also do not mean to offend anyones personal beliefs, but I am now of the opinion that given the facts as they stand now, if you still hold to RW being a “true prophet” you’re doing some major league rationalizing. And so it goes, history repeating itself no matter how much writing is on the wall.
The debate on “Ron Weinland— prophet or profit?” continues here.