Ron Weinland: Discussion Part 9
23 shopping days until the Great Tribulation (at least, according to Ron Weinland,) so get out there and pump some of those good ole’ American consumer dollars into the economy! Oh, wait, that won’t help— we’re all doomed… right. You may as well send those dollars to Ron, then— he still seems to want them for some reason.
Part 1 Basic info and links.
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5 FAQ
Part 6
Part 7
Part 8
March 25th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Trey,
Others have addressed this point quite well, but I’d like to add that mathematics is in fact a branch of science, and has plenty of very nice constants that are absolutely accurate and perfectly in accord with nature as we observe it— slice of Pi anyone?
March 25th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Let me pose this question…for those of you who beieve we are in the end time, and assuming none of you are the “chosen 144,000″, will you fight tooth and nail to survive or do you want to go quckly in the beginning (assuming you have given this some thought), or, do you believe God has already predetermined your end and you will “go with the flow”?
March 25th, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Robbi;
I’m going out fighting shotgun and glock. Hopefully there will be some thing that is real from God to turn to during that time. Perhaps being fooled this time around was a lesson from God.
March 25th, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Kurt: ME TOO!!! but…what’s a glock?
March 25th, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Google it. Very popular with cops. Austrian made automatic that approaches the reliability of a revolver.
We are gonna get in trouble for going off subject.
March 25th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
Robbie,
I like how you said “go with the flow” because that is just what people are going to be doing. Or, you can go your own way. Its like what Led Zepplin said “Yes there are two paths you can go by but in the long run There’s still time to change the road you’re on”
So you either follow the masses and beliveve a lie. Or, go your own way till the end.
That being said…Aliens are not your friend!
March 25th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Magisto: Yes…Led Zepplin …brings back crazy memories…anyway…all I can envision is the scene in the movie Titanic, where the camera is on the ship captain’s face when people are running around in panic and a woman with her baby asks the captain “where should I go Capitain?”…and he has no answer because he knows the ship is doomed…..kinda like what RW envisions…people running around in panic and looking to him for ALL THE ANSWERS…knowing the ship is going to go down and there is only enough life boats for the 144,000! and by the way, I love how you slip in the “very off” topic of aliens…do you think RW is one of THEM????
March 25th, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Think more like New Orleans after Katrina, except there is no outside government assistance.
March 25th, 2008 at 4:43 pm
I was not coherent during the Herbert Armstrong era, except I think my aunt had some copies of the “Plain Truth” magazine laying around. I am attracted by the explanation of heaven and hell. I’ve often wondered what heaven must be like…..it can’t be floating around on a cloud. RW jokingly says “grandpa is up there fishing” right! I like the idea of a kingdom on earth. I’ve never thought there could be a hell with everlasting excruciating pain. The Lord’s prayer supports it. It seems like a lot of loose ends are covered in RWs sermons….secrets that have really been locked up. Maybe just the way he’s presenting it with the scare tactics makes me sit up a little straighter and incline my ear. I am unsure enough of everything now to like the idea that there is a right and a wrong way to do things. Maybe that is my Spock upbringing showing. I long for some surety and comfort. I don’t believe it can be found in the COG…yet….but I really look forward to April 17th so I can go back to being just my normal hopeless self.
March 25th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
No no, if you want a view on what i believe you should read this… its not 100% correct but it will point you on the right direction. Cuase i dont feel like typing it all out…
Aliens= Fallen Angles
http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa021102a.htm
March 25th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Kurt: didn’t see goverment assistance in New Orleans buddy…now THAT was a SIN!!!…I understand your point on the magnitude…
I gotta say…I think this end time prophecy may have attracted survivalists looking for a catastrophy…what do you think?
March 25th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
You might think that this has nothing to do with the topic Ironwolf, but we do have evidence of this planet…and its star. The star that will be passing us by is a brown dwarf. (http://astro.berkeley.edu/~stars/bdwarfs/) it is the most common star. And if jupitar was any bigger, it would be a star aswell.
This why when you see images of a ET, their eyes are really big. Its because brown dwarfs are not very luminous.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:07 pm
Magisto;
That is what Ron is saying, that ‘modern’ aliens are from the demonic realm. That may be true.
Listener;
When nothing happens on the 17th and the COG-PKG says it meant it would happen in the ’spiritual realm’, will you believe them?
Or if something else happens that they want to lay claim to, will you look past what is evidently evil about their ‘church’ and the source of their knowledge?
March 25th, 2008 at 5:14 pm
Not again …..
The only way “spiritual realm” somehow means something less or is insignificant to something else … is if you don’t believe in the spiritual realm at all.
Which is is Kurt? Are you arguing that Ron Weiland is false … or that there is no God, Satan, demons, angels etc.
You can’t have it both ways.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Magisto,
OK, I’ll bite: and exactly how close is this brown dwarf that we could possibly be considering it as “passing by?”
March 25th, 2008 at 5:17 pm
Robbi;
It is more likely the other way around. Those who are looking at end time prophecy start looking at ways to survive. Why would a survivalist need a reason for what he already thinks will happen?
March 25th, 2008 at 5:20 pm
Take Jon for instance ….
He was a minister IN a church at one point …. then come to the logical conclusion based on his own experience, observations, and education … that it was all for nothing.
THAT is a “spiritual” event …. Serously.
Not unlike CS Lewis (another highly educated and critical thinking individual) who started out agnostic and ended up believing … after somehow proving to himself it made sense to do so.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
Todaysfate;
Not sure what I am arguing, did not even think I was arguing. But I was thinking that there is a demonic realm and that Ron is getting his inspiration and knowledge from them.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
Magisto,
I read the article - very interesting. I printed it and I am going to read it again tonite.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:26 pm
IronWolf,
I am familiar with the “scientific” version of the apocolypse as well. Not only is plannet X heading our way …. but sometime in 2012, the earth is suposed to “rub” up against some galaxy wide energyfield … causing the world to litterally be tossed upside down … reversing the polls and changing the earths axis.
I for one know this to be true because the MAYANS said so.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:28 pm
Magisto: you are way off topic my friend…better knock it off or Ironwolf with zap you out of the universe with his gamma ray gun!
Listeners: After April 17 comes and goes and you become your normal self…have a little hope in your life…hope of the future, hope in mankind that we can turn things around! That’s one of the things I can’t stomach about RW…the hopelessness he instills in people that we are not capable to make our world a better place
March 25th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Kurt,
If nothing happens on Apr 17, and it is “spiritualized away” then prob what he will do is ask for extra tithes/offerings to get the church “back on track”. I have been wondering how he will explain it if nothing goes down. I did think he was meaning that March 18 would be more publicly eventful but maybe that was me just reading something into it.
Did you read the article/post WW has on his blog? This gives me some idea of what he is getting ready to do again.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:30 pm
Well, so close that it wil look like the end of Space Odyssey, with two suns in the sky. The fact is it works like most comets do…spending most of the time in space, and once they start getting close to the sun they start getting fast and faster. So it wont be in our sky for a long time. And it basically crosses through the inner planets. This can support another theory of the moon and how it was struck by a “Mars size obect” that had a differnt angle around the sun than all the rest of the planets.
If this star did pass us by it would rebirth our planet. Its like a reset button.
I just don’t know how to feel about ET life, and i think thats how we are suppost to feel?
March 25th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
The correct term is “Mighty Thor’s Banhammer.”
March 25th, 2008 at 5:31 pm
There is all kinds of stuff out there on this ‘12th planet’. Lets just say there is no prof one way or the other.
This is the kind of stuff that hypes people up into Ron believers.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Kurt, …
I believe as you do …
But to me … if Ron IS getting his inspiration from demons … then that would be just as the book of revelations says it will happen at the end times.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:33 pm
Robbi, im trying to say that this is connected with what RW is saying.
In my point of view it is very relevent.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Magisto,
OK, and the nearest brown dwarf is over 11 light-years away. So how’s that going to work? Never mind— e-mail me about it if you really feel the need to run on about this.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
To Weinland Watch:
Perhaps I spoke so unclearly that I caused you to misunderstand me. And I apologize for that. I really should speak more clearly. You see, in my own odd way, I’m trying to help you get your point across.
When I said “For that man” I wasn’t referring to Ron. I was referring to aforementioned board member who said Ron lacks love; and following it up “it wasn?t about greed, or about ambition, or hurt, or Ron?s need to control everything. He [meaning the board member] nailed it because he knew his Bible.”
This board member was not impressed by Ron’s greed. We’re all greedy. This board member was not impressed by Ron’s ambition, or the hurt he caused, or Ron’s need to control everything - he is VERY controlling. One could argue that all these things are common to people. No, he recognized that Ron lacks love, and that was enough. There’s no getting around THAT. Everything else was gravy on top this one thing.
The man lacks love, case closed. Coffin nailed. The people who believe there’s a chance his prophecies are real, well, the accuracy is moot. If Ron prophecies accurately, and calls down fire from the sky, and heals the sick, but doesn’t have love - he’s a false prophet.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Kurt: Many survivalists choose to live in that mode 24/7…Survivalists are always ready, prepared and self sufficient….many are “waiting” for the inevitable…whatever that may be (evil goverment intervention, terrorist attacks, severe climate change, the end time,exploding stars)…the point is… that some of these survivalists are extemists and are trigger ready…I hope you are not one of them
March 25th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Robbi Says:
“I can’t stomach about RW…the hopelessness he instills in people that we are not capable to make our world a better place”
RW is not the cause of hopelessness. It doesn’t take a false prophet, a false religion, a true religion, word of mouth, or any talking at all to be shown that people can indeed NOT make the world a better place.
I mean seriously …. look arround. Either the problems are mounting at a faster pace then we (humanity) can deal with them … or simply enough people aren’t paying attention to care.
The only way you are really going to save the plannet is to declare martial law and FORCE people to stop doing the things they are doing in this world and to this world. Obviously we can’t do that because it would be “evil”. Right?
March 25th, 2008 at 5:40 pm
CallieMae;
Yes, I didn’t even know WW had a blog until today. Don’t worry about me, that question was directed at the ‘listener’.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Robbi,
When you or someone you know is pushed to resorting to stealing to put food on the table …. would you call that being a “survivalist”?
Perhaps you believe that you could never be pushed to that point of despiration… as long as you were finacially responcible … kept your chickens in order … watched your step etc.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Robbi;
No, I am not a survivalist. After what I saw in New Orleans after Katrina, I decided I should own a shotgun to protect my family. After Ron and his nuclear terror strikes on American cities and watching Jericho (Ron says its going to be like that) I started stockpiling food and water.
Before all this crap I just sat in my basement, drank beer, and played computer games. Ah, the good old days.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
For anyone here who thinks that Weinland’s lack of love is an indictment against him as a prophet of God, but still wants to believe that the people called “prophets” in the Bible were in fact prophets, I’d like to ask: what kind of “love” was Elisha showing when he called upon she-bears to maul 42 children for the crime of teasing him? (2Kings 2:23-25
)
Hey, here’s one apologist who claims that poor Elisha was really being beset by vicious adult hooligans in the service of Ba’al, and the mauling was just God’s judgment on them. I’m sure Elisha was really quite a loving guy, and God’s back was to the wall on the matter.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
Ill just answer that and ill let the real RW disscussion go on…=P
We are a binary solar system, consisting of TWO stars. (The most adverage type in the galaxy) The Sun that we see is the biggest in the solar system, so everything goes around it. The other star, the brown dwarf has a 3600 year rotation. Last time it came around it caused Noah’s Flood.
-Magisto
http://www.myspace.com/magisto if you have any questions.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Todayfate;
I concur with your comment on mans inability to rule himself. That is another lure of Ron.
March 25th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Yeah, where’s you people’s proper sense of hopelessness? What are you all, insane?
March 25th, 2008 at 5:56 pm
Todaysfate: “I mean seriously…look around”
I do look around, I look every day, and if more people saw more with their heart than their synical eyes, there would be more positive changes…what have you done lately to help others?..and if you have, can you do more?…what are you doing to effect change in this world??? What does RW do except preach that man is inately evil and can’t govern himself…yes, this world is in trouble, I have two teenagers, I see what they are exposed to…BUT it is up to US to turn it around…and we are capable!…or we can be like RW, believing our time is up for self rule…we DO have a choice!
March 25th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Magisto,
Oh, no you don’t.
Enlighten us: you know this exactly how?
March 25th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
To Jon:
“The God of the Bible fails to meet many of these criteria, especially that whole “keeping no record of wrongs” bit. I would also deem it “rude” to kill the entire planet…but that’s me being silly again. ; )”
I’m not trying to convert you. Not my job. Nor is defending God. But you say God is rude to kill the earth. To that I take exception.
It’s not God who’s doing it, it’s us. The only possible way a person can honestly blame God is if he believes in God, which it would appear you don’t, so you must agree that, lacking a God, everything that has been done here has been done by us. What, then, is the difference if God agrees with you?
God says over and again if we would just turn away from what we’re doing, He could and would fix things. We are the ones who refuse to have it fixed because this is how we love it to be. We love our pain, and our guilt, and our controversy. We love tossing our money at false prophets. We love stepping on others to get to the top. We love peeking in our neighbor’s windows to see what juicy gossip we can find. If (demon or no) Hannah Montana takes her clothes off for Playboy when she turns 18, it will sell millions. We love to be lied to in election years. For crying out loud, if we couldn’t butcher each other on an incredible scale, what would turn the market back around when the greedy no-account bankers are done taking what the heartless life-sucking government we helped vote in left behind?
As far as the “keeping no records” thing goes - perhaps I should remind you of the part where the God of the Bible dropped everything and became a man so He could be innocently slaughtered in the most horrible way available at the time in order to wipe clean whatever record there is on you? Would it be so terrible to keep a record so you would understand the magnitude of the act of wiping it clean - and for not a single thing on earth you or I or any one else did to deserve the pardon? I think not.
What I do think is about the Passion of the Christ. An incredible experience, even with its shortcomings. When I see with my eyes what it looked like, an innocent man getting shredded and flayed unrecognizable, and I know every single one of those lashes should have gone to me - because dawgoneit I’ve earned them - I tend to think a little differently about the love of the God of the Bible. But you don’t believe in God, so it doesn’t matter to you anyhow. But then, one wonders, why bother bashing Him?
You’re on a blog, dedicated to getting people caught in the claws of a tyrant and a false prophet to see the truth, and you bash their God. I gotta say I don’t think that’ll help them.
But none of this changes my original point that Ron lacks love. And love is a requirement.
March 25th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Ironwolf;
“Yeah, where’s you people’s proper sense of hopelessness? What are you all, insane?”
In case you haven’t been keeping up with current events, things are bad and getting worse. If in insane you mean we realize the mess we are in and are freaked out, then yes, we are insane.
March 25th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
sorry Todaysfate…all that was directed to Ironwolf.
Todaysfate..I would resort to just about anything to keep my children alive!
and you’re right Ironwolf, simply not enought people are paying attention to care…..complacency…one of our worst human traits…..
I’ll tell you what..I will put a challenge out there…instead of blogging tomorrow, why not spend the time to do SOMETHING that will make a positive difference to ANYONE, outside your family…out of your norm, maybe out of your comfort level,.and then report back here on Thurs…on how that made you feel, and more importantly, how you think that made a difference…anyone in?
March 25th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Or were you just being ironic?
March 25th, 2008 at 6:15 pm
I know this because the work of past astronomers. They would release the information everytime they found it. But then the topic would simply disappear.
Now ill enlighten you =]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjjrStDxTrc&feature=related
March 25th, 2008 at 6:24 pm
ok, I think I was preaching…did I break a rule? The challenge still goes..
March 25th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
Hey Weinland Watch,
In your opinion, pretty easy question as for a yes or a no. Do you think Weinland is going to be right, as to what he said is going to go down in April?
March 25th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
Things aren’t perfect, but what is? Maybe a concept, but not much else, arguably so. But come on guys, it’s only all negative, doom and gloom, if that’s all you allow yourself to see or hear.
I do think it would be intetesting if it was possible to pluck a few “dudes” and “dudets” from the past 6000 years or so, let them hang out for a period of time, and see if they would like to stay or go back.
What do you think?
March 25th, 2008 at 6:31 pm
I think it’s late, and I’m pretty tired…turning in and tuning out until Thurs…good nite all
March 25th, 2008 at 6:37 pm
I have spent about 6 hours listening to Ron’s stuff. It seems clear to me that he meant something physical and astounding will happen on April 17.
In his March 22 sermon he said February 2 marked 75 days until the beginning of the great tribulation. He says that the 7th seal was opened March 18, the 144,000 were sealed, and therefore the “temple” was completed. (The “temple” being all the people God has worked with over the last 6000 years who will be resurrected into spirit bodies and reign on the earth for 1000 years.)
He says that the first trumpet, signaling the beginning of the great tribulation, will sound 30 days after that, or April 17. (The actual scripture says there was a silence in heaven for 1/2 hour, and I’m not sure how he came up with 30 days.) He says that when the seal was opened, Satan no longer had the ability to sustain the abomination of desolation going on in the scattered church. On that day Satan was redirected into a great religious leader who will no longer be acting like himself. At this time the Pope just happens to be visiting Washington DC and New York City.
March 25th, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Peter asks
“Hey Weinland Watch,
In your opinion, pretty easy question as for a yes or a no. Do you think Weinland is going to be right, as to what he said is going to go down in April?”
No. That’s the easy answer.
The more complicated answer is, what exactly is he saying will go down on the 17th? On the one hand we have what the book said, and now we have what the church says. It’s pretty clear to see the disconnect between the two.
In the book, we have death and destruction and “when it says a third of all plant life, that’s exactly what it means”. Official church correspondence to a member now says, oh wait, April 17th is when the Great Trib. is supposed to start, but “it is not known how long this could take to be completed. It could take 6 to 12 months”.
As recently as two weeks ago, Weinland was instructing members they might not be able to keep Passover, except in their own homes, and family members of church members have posted here about how members were instructed there would be no Feast of Taberbnacles this year.
Yet, in this past week’s sermon, Weinland throws in an oblique reference to Atonement, a Fall Feast.
Is the subtle thought-reform already beginning? What do you say, Peter? Yes or no?
March 25th, 2008 at 7:05 pm
Kurt,
Thanks for finally picking up on that.
March 25th, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Magisto,
Nice try. Now I’ll enlighten you:
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/planetx/index.html
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/planetx/nutshell.html
March 25th, 2008 at 8:42 pm
Interesting thoughts. Thanks for the post.
I never claimed my experiences were “all for nothing.” Hardly. Far from it. I highly value the pursuit of truth, and that pursuit logically would follow a religious path at some point. I was fortunate to have been raised the way I was and consider my Christian friends to be among my closest companions.
I would like to say “thanks” for the kind and mostly accurate observations, however. You would be surprised how many Christians are not so kind and assume some pretty horrid things about the whole affair.
We have no way of discerning what is a “spiritual” event from what is merely an “event”. Reasoning of all ‘events’ still applies. Isn’t that a drag?
Lewis’ life prior to conversion was not that of an “active” agnostic or atheist, if you will pardon the term. He did not reason his way into faith, as I reasoned my way out of it. He did, at a later point in his life, develop reasons “for” his faith…in a sense, back door reasoning. The whole “liar, lunatic, lord” bit, for example. Unfortunately, that and many of Lewis’ conclusions is woefully lacking. The “three Ls” lack an obvious fourth and a plausible fifth possibility, for example…but that’s way off-topic.
I admire Lewis for his bravery and his imagination, but there are far better apologists out there.
March 25th, 2008 at 9:16 pm
The POPE just baptized a prominant Muslim. The man is now in hiding. Hes calling for peace in the middle east. He is bringing back some things from Vatican I such as Latin, changing the way we answer some prayers during mass. He does seem to be more proactive talking about Islam and its anti-christian behavior of advocating killing. He has been doing this WAY before the 7th seal. Unless I hear something BIG TIME on the 17th as RW says…”JUST LISTEN TO WHAT HE HAS TO SAY ON APRIL 17TH” then the jury is still out!!! Also I read in a blog somewhere where one of you think that Pope Pius XII was PRO-NAZI…not true, it looked that he was HANDS OFF, but we later find out that Pius was working undercover with england on a plot to assassinate Hitler…I Urge you all to search the web to find this evidence. VIVA IL PAPA!
March 25th, 2008 at 9:22 pm
FYI - RW Nov 24, 2007-The world economy is shaking/quaking worse each day and is coming more and more to the forefront of news commentary. Next year will see the Dollar collapse and the Euro become the new strength for the world?s economy. The thunders of Revelation are now going to begin to increase in intensity and frequency. Beginning in February, those thunders will increase dramatically, and by April this world will begin to be shaken to its foundations.
March 25th, 2008 at 9:36 pm
Hi Richard:
Well, first off all Christians are called to “give defense” for their faith. So, while you may not be in charge of defending God, you are certainly accountable for mounting a defense of your personal beliefs.
You say it is “not God killing the earth…it’s us.”
Really? By that, do you mean that ‘we’ are responsible for a supposed flood that eradicated all life on earth, save some fish and a family of carpenters?
The original remark was a quip. A pithy snap-back. You know…humor?
Work with me here Richard.
I’m going to assume you are suggesting that man is destroying earth from an environmental point of view. I could not agree more if this is your assertion. Of course I do not believe that “God is rude” as I do not believe in your God. I am saying the God described in The Bible is excessively violent, which I humorously categorized as “rude”.
As to my beliefs, you can find them posted in bits and pieces on this blog if you’re interested. In short, I was a youth minister and schooled in theology and deconverted five years ago for ethical reasons. I’m happy to discuss it civilly with anyone providing we do not stray too far off-topic.
Hey, I just wish Hannah Montana would stop singing and start working at McDonalds or something. As for Playboy, I never considered it. Not my type. But you never know what three years will bring.
Kidding.
Richard, I understand what you are saying, and more importantly I totally get the heart from which it comes. I have a somewhat unique position in that I was intimately involved in the faith you embrace as well as well educated as to its history and parameters. I am sure that your heart is in the right place.
I am not going to bother with the typical agnostic defenses: “How do you know God is God”, or prove this or that. I can do that all day, but it will not get us anywhere.
All I will say is this: Your belief assumes something fatal. It assumes a “once was” scenario. You assume that we “turned away” from something over time — and in that assumption is the belief that man was once better than this. More attached to God. More watchful, humble, pliable, etc.
I would challenge you to show me ONE time in all of history that was “better” than today without relying on unconfirmed Biblical passages. Use multi-sourced accounts of history.
To illustrate your position on how humanity is suffering from turning away from God, you might say “global warming.” I say the black plague. You say “false prophets” and I will counter with The Crusades. In fact, some of the darkest moments in human history were when the greater powers of civilized society endeavored to allow the Christian faith to govern them. The most enlightened moments followed major scientific, medical, and humanistic advances.
If you counter with, “Yes, but these early, brutal Christians were spiritually off…misguided…deceived…”, I will suggest a God that allows rampant confusion amongst the truly devout. The only way to possibly reconcile this is to judge the hearts of your past brethren as dark and purposefully astray. I am not willing to do that. I have greater mercy than that toward the history of mankind, even the bloodied faithful.
What part of keeping no records of wrong do you not understand? You are stating categorically that God keeps the vast majority of the records of wrong, as the Bible states categorically that very few will be saved. Very, very few.
Imagine a parent with twelve children. Eleven disobey or, worse, misunderstand, will all good intentions, one commandment. You, as their father, choose to banish them forever from your household. And, as if that was not sufficient, you willfully create the most horrific of evil dwellings for them to be tortured for all eternity.
Willfully. Create. Evil.
Let those three words soak in. The scriptures are clear: “Satan” does not have the power to create, and all things were created by God.
Including everlasting torment.
And you “except” this because of Christ? Because of a savior who demands acceptance during our life-span yet appeared to .001% of the land mass on earth? What of the people living and dying long before this “good news” could reach them?
Never mind…I know the answer to that question.
It saddens me that anyone would accept such depravity and cruelty and file it under “loving acts.” You believe a God whose definition of mercy, love and justice is nothing comparable to that of ours. In places, yes. In others, an absolute dismal contrast to anything remotely close.
One beautiful act cannot erase dozens of cruel ones.
You are misguided in your assumptions.
First, the Passion Play has been around for almost two centuries. Its history is almost as bloody as Mel’s hyperviolent film. I suggest you Google it.
Second, an all-powerful Deity need not rip the flesh off ANYONE to prove anything. Any ‘god’ that demands blood or chooses to demonstrate “love” via torture should be at the very least questioned; at the very most, discarded as a mythical sadist.
Lastly, I am not “bashing God” — I am giving you sound reasons for deconstructing irrational beliefs by pointing out the obvious and violent nature of a specific acclaimed deity. If a “god” exists, I find it incredulous to believe he/she/it/they could be so barbaric.
To state facts about an individual with grammatical flair is not necessarily bashing them. To say, for example, “Hitler was an evil man” is not a bash, but a fact. I may say this to a neo-Nazi in order to persuade him to rethink his position. From his position, I would be “bashing his lord”. From mine, I’m speaking the truth.
No Richard…this is a blog created by an atheist that happens to have a series of blog entries about yet another bogus prophet. Just read the other entries. Trust me — I am not in the wrong place, although I grant you that I may be considered off-topic. Perhaps Wolf will grant me access to posts of my own. (Kidding Robert… ; )
And, neither are you — that is, if you are willing to discuss your beliefs, give rational assertions as to why you believe them, if so willing, and try to understand other people’s positions. This includes their anger toward what they may feel is a dangerous and sadistic being.
This is not personal Richard. Nothing I have written is remotely personal toward anyone. But if your beliefs cannot tolerate critical thought and a bit of disdain over the millions of lives it has taken over the centuries, then a good skin-thickening cream may be in order.
Jon
March 25th, 2008 at 9:38 pm
jon i think any debate with you is over for me since you can just simply assert that i am apparently a child abuser or something along those lines. sorry VERY VERY sensitive accusation from you . thanks but no thanks.
March 25th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
and yes thos are personal remarks to whom ever you are talking to no matter how you sugar coat them.
March 25th, 2008 at 9:48 pm
iron wolf you are 100% correct on the math thing! sorry, didnt realize the actual scope of that comment. i stand corrected.
March 25th, 2008 at 9:52 pm
Jack;
The Pope should really have his head examined for this one, but yeah: He baptized a “prominent” Muslim. A prominent Italian Muslim who just so happens to make a living as a pro-Israel journalist. Who just so happens to have had death threats since at least 2003 for his commentary against suicide bombers.
That conversion was a real stretch of the imagination. A true miracle. Baptizing Bin Laden with full consent in a pool of acid…now THAT would be a miracle worth converting over.
It reminds me of the supposed “wrath of God” Katrina thing. Sure. Flood New Orleans. That’s a doozy. Flood Las Vegas — sin city if ever there was one — and then we’ll talk turkey. ; )
RE: The dollar. Same thing happened in the 70s. Only a global recession brought it to an end. Most analysts are predicting the possibility of a similar (but no worse-off) recession and dollar backlash.
Just keep in mind what happened to the dollar in the decade after 1970.
Oh. Wait. That was the decade of greed which ushered in a whole new crop of TV evangelists calling for the new harvest, etc. Etc. Family values, circa 1983.
Geez. Can’t win. : )
March 25th, 2008 at 9:59 pm
Thanks for setting that one to rights, Ironwolf.
I thought I was going to die laughing after the first half of Magisto’s You Tube reference there.
I heard the words perhaps a good guess, let’s assume, if so, what might it have looked like, assuming it was spotted, it could have been…all in less than a minute.
Far to speculative to be taken seriously.
As far as Weinland and all the others of his ilk, I can only say I feel as if these illusionists are reprehensible individuals that spread lies to foster fear and create panic. Their greed swallows up the hearts and minds of so many good and decent people.
Will the world come to an end one day? Almost certainly! Wasting the time you’ve been given in this life, wringing your hands and arguing over just how, when, and why achieves nothing.
I am sure there are those of you here that have experienced the lost of a loved one to death. I know I am one of them. The most profound understanding I took away from those losses was regret. Regret for not having spent my time with these cherished individuals more wisely.
One more tiny observation…
If any of these so called prophets actually bears a fruitful prophecy do you really think anyone is going to be standing around taking score and awarding prizes to whoever was right? I’ll wager a bet that no one who might survive some apocalypse will really give a crap.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
A lot has gone on today on this blog! I’ve been catching up on sleep.
Most comments I can’t wrap my mind around, other than to say….. Hmmmm
Kurt, I love you, your funny. We own guns, lots of them. We love firearms… They are locked in a gun safe, except the one under my pillow, which is fun to look at too.
I think you mentioned beer which is also good… nnnnah on video games though…
We don’t have a real survival kit, I suppose we should at least gather a 30 day supply. We (hopefully) will be debt free by the end of this year, if things go as planned, so this will help if the economy crashes (I would think at least)
My sib who is part of RW group has a year supply of food, water, toiletries, GALLONS of GERM X and stuff like this in their basement. They seem well fortified.
I guess I went from paying and praying…waiting on the Kingdom of God in WCG to praying and praying waiting on Christ’s return…which means I guess I’m considered one of those “complaicent” people. I’ll have to think about that.
CallieMae has REAL understanding and experience with WCG & splinters…she is right. RW will devise an excuse to keep the money coming and blame the members for God NOT making things happen as RW “CHOOSES”.
Marie is right…I also have family in RW’s cult and their lives (spiritually & fanancially) will be seriously damaged IF/WHEN they realize they have been “hood winked”. And the longer they ‘believe’ the worst it will be. CallieMae will probably concur on this.
Richard Saunders: You said RW has no love??? Would ANYBODY expect ANYTHING less from a pastor in WCG or SPLINTERS? I believe YOU have stated the UNDERSTATEMENT of this WHOLE blog! I CAN’T NAME ONE minister who wasn’t a jerk, butt hole, know-it-all, arrogant piece of work in ALL MY YEARS! Including MY FATHER and FATHER IN LAW who are pastors in 2 different splinter groups. IT WAS something in the teachings, Ambassador WATER or they were just hand picked from a BUTT HOLE tree. NO RW has NO LOVE, of course he doesn’t…he would probably be offended if anyone suggested that he does.
Sorry, I ranted… I don’t mean to sound like a butt hole or jerk…
Now my face is red and it’s hot in here all of a sudden.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Somebody throw me a bone….
NAME ONE (I’m only asking for one) minister in WCG or splinter who was GENUINELY LOVING and KIND toward PEOPLE….(other than the deacons & elders)???? And SOUND MEN???????
ONE NAME…PLEEASE?
March 25th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
Trey,
No one is calling you or anyone else a “child molester”. You unfortunately missed the point by the proverbial mile.
I’ll spell it out so there’s no mistaking the point:
Any “father” who would torture his own children is a sadist. And, since I assume the position that you would NOT do this, nor would any sane human, I am asking you to rethink the idea that God is a “loving father.”
Are we clear now?
No allegations of “molestation” were levied. It scares me to think that you could even draw such a conclusion, especially with the rather sardonic ending to my post.
The truth is that our debate is over because it never truly started. You cannot state your criteria nor defend your position without undue histrionics or feeling personally attacked.
One would think a blog and platform such as this would attract a more willing engagement. I’ll keep hoping for the best.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Jon,
I like reading what you write, but…. you said: “One would think a blog and platform such as this would attract a more willing engagement. I’ll keep hoping for the best.”
WERE YOU a pastor with WCG or splinter?
March 25th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
P.S. to Trey:
I do offer apologies for any unintentional offense. It is never my objective.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Ice cap melting, doesn’t this mean more water for the fishes?
March 25th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Jon, is your middle name Solomon?
Didn’t he lement over “everything” means “nothing?”
I’m not being sarcastic, I’m just wondering if you and he are in the same mind here…
March 25th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
hey guys,
i go to work and we finish one blog and on to the next, seems to happen every day now. I’ve been spending more time catching up on this site more the last couple weeks than watching tv. First of all I can’t tell who thinks ron is false or not (lol) all you guys who are arguing back and forth, assume right now in time that he is false. The funny thing is some of you are like me and thought he was prob true but wanted to see if anyone else out there felt the same way. Then you come here and find a few ppl who were from the same church as ron several years ago, and let them change your mind. Maybe this could be around the same time of the church that ron speaks of about God spewing them out of his mouth.
Ironwolf,
even you who doesn’t believe ron could be right. You use to speak like ron has a chance to be right or wrong, have seemed to “figure” ron to be wrong or false without “evidence”.
ie…23 shopping days until the Great Tribulation (at least, according to Ron Weinland,) so get out there and pump some of those good ole’ American consumer dollars into the economy! Oh, wait, that won’t help— we’re all doomed… right. You may as well send those dollars to Ron, then— he still seems to want them for some reason.
i want to take a vote now!!
who is with me and thinks that everything ron has said can be true and that the USA is doomed and we should be worrying about the future.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Hi Banncam;
Neither. I was a youth minister and apologist, Junior Grade.
Never strolled through the doors of the WCG.
I stumbled on IW’s blog while surfing a honkin’ huge wave that started with the death of Sri Chinmoy and ended up with this Weinland joker.
For the most part it’s been a great ride. The comment about willing engagement is directed toward the fact that, on most atheistic blogs and forums, there tends to be a bit more tolerance toward opposing views without attaching a personal attack to the position.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
jon, i said abuser. you said molester. and no i dont think so on any debating you put words in peoples mouths, and are derogatory and apoligize for shit you say you are not doing,like im not sayin any thing personaly to ny one, yet you are. going to bed yall have a good night. p.s. i hope april 17 happens just for people like you jon.oh wait that is wjhy its going to happen no matter what date
March 25th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
Dewayne, you are funny!
RW or ANY dude can say the USA is doomed…. And they could be right.
Problem with Ron is…HE was dumb enough to put dates to it and say HE has direct revelation from God on the details.
RW is a FALSE prophet! Because his “predictions” will not come to pass as HE propheceys.
I vote FALSE… REAL FALSE!
March 25th, 2008 at 10:28 pm
i vote true…..nothing anywhere has proven to me that ron is false, he has until september for something to happen (like a nuke attack) and until Jan 09 for the United States of America to be no longer (taken over by the EU). As a matter of fact i see the economy going in the wrong direction quickly, I also could see anything close to 9-11 (or even worse), hurting the US so bad that another country (or EU) to take up on the chance to take us over and stop us from deciding how the world will act or not act like it wants to!!!
March 25th, 2008 at 10:31 pm
Hey Jon,
I’m glad you never passed through the doors or halls of WCG. Believe it or not, you are blessed because of it!
I like your vocabulary.
I sometimes like to watch “O’Reilley” to hear the “new word”…people send to him. If he doesn’t have a new word, my time viewing is spoiled.
I don’t know who Sri Chinmoy was. Sorry he/she died….I think…
March 25th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
You vote true Dewayne?
You got to be joking?
Have you READ his book? 2008 God’s Final Witness?
On page 85 he said, “This escalating destruction, throughout the world, is a forewarning of far greater destruction to follow once the Seventh Seal is opened.”
And he also said on this same page (85), “The destructive escalation during this physical phase of the sixth seal has been likened to a pregnant woman who is in labor pain.”
Remember, he wrote this book in 2006, and said “I am to announce through God’s direct revelation, that I am one of the two witnesses” Obviously THESE words that are in his book and according to RW, GOD directed him to write them by a revelation IN 2006. But the 7th seal has opened and I don’t see escalating destruction.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:37 pm
banncam,
several blogs ago you were afraid ron could be right, its like in 2 days all of a sudden you are laughing at ppl who could think he is right. If we get nuked or those pastors die in April, you will sing a diff tune and be singing the praises of ron, do you really think your family members will kill themselves if ron is wrong? Think about it………the only thing “us” believers will do is not respond to this blog so you guys can make fun of us. Banncam I hope for your sake nothing does happen, but I truly belive ron could be right and we are about to go thru some bad times on this earth.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Here is another one Dewayne…
Page 90.
?The opening of this seal (7th) will be the beginning of the final three and one-half years of great worldwide tribulation. Before we cover those events, (the events of the 7th seal) which are the subject of another chapter we need to look more closely at the events that precede the last seal, events which are pronounced by Seven Thunders during the time of the Sixth Seal?
He also said, ?The final storm will engulf the whole earth for three and one-half years, but as that storm approaches, (meaning, the 7th seal is not opened yet) the rumbling of this thunder will be heard with increasing intensity.?
And on page 91 he says, ?All Seven Thunders will increase in intensity as this great end-time storm approaches,?? and ?These thunders serve as a prelude to the final tribulation and greater manifestation of the two witnesses.?
My question is this, if something is a ?prelude? to something else, how can they be ?simultaneous?? In other words, now that we are in the 7th seal, how can he say the thunders are roaring in our ears?….IF THEY ARE A PRELUDE for final tribulation which is to last 3 ½ years?
March 25th, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Banncam;
Even when I was in the church, I had a hard time buying the “wisest man” bit.
For example, if everything is “vanity”, then writing Ecclesiastes (assuming Solomon actually wrote it) would be an exercise in vanity, as would Songs of Solomon.
I highly prefer SoS to Ecclesiastes for obvious reasons, but I digress.
And that whole “split the baby in half” bit to determine the real mother? What if neither woman was telling the truth? A rather sophomoric attempt at reason if you ask me.
I did appreciate the whole 700 wives and 300 concubines gig, but it’s hard to imagine getting anything done. Yep…it’s good to be king, even if archeologists revealed a rather shabby palace for such a wealthy dude.
As for my own wisdom: Nah. I’m reasonably intelligent and well-read, but so was Hitler and Pol Pot. Bad company if you ask me.
I’ll consider myself “wise” perhaps if I leave the world a better place. So far, the jury is out. Then again my standards are high. : )
March 25th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Man, Jon, you need to lighten up. One thing about being a former pastor that seems to be deeply embedded in your thinking is preaching. You have changed your pulpit from the church to us poor silly bastards that believe in God.
Your musings are interesting - I’m not criticizing - but - a bit wordy.
I’m not sure of the value of rethinking that God is a loving father when he has proved himself in that very context to me in a personal way.
It might be the modern day interpretations of scripture and theology is at fault rather than God….but….maybe I’m just a simple fool that believes that God does indeed exist and the world would be a much better place to live in if - for starters - Christians would actually begin living lives that reflected the principles that Jesus did teach rather than focusing on endless debating and searching for absolute truth.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:46 pm
Dewayne…
I have NEVER thought RON was RIGHT … NEVER…
I’ve always believed the world is spiraling down, but NOT because RW thinks he has a direct line to God!
You won’t find ANYTHING like that that I’ve ever written… I’ve NEVER believed he could be right. I do try to be “nice” and “throw a bone” to those people who are trying to “find answers” and “want someone to believe in”…so I don’t reflect the butt holes out there in this world. So I haven’t been as strong sounding in some of my posts, but I’ve NEVER believed He was right.
Ron proves himself WRONG practically EVERY time he opens his mouth… if you separate his charisma from facts.
I worry my family might take a drug to end their lives ONLY because RW is SO arrogant I don’t see him slinking away like HWA did when he was proven wrong on prophecy. I think RW is a monster compaired to HWA, so YEAH…I have REAL concerns for my family…IF they can swallow the pill he is already giving them….they could swallow poison…
I’m trying not to be offended by your comment Dewayne. Maybe I shouldn’t have been so “concerned” about “believers feelings when I first got onto this blog…. This is my very first experience with any blog and I didn’t know you could just spell things out…like this…
It’s sort of refreshing though
March 25th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
banncam,
you wrote while i was writing.
I feel this has been some of the craziest weather i have seen in my life. Last year in the summer i cut my grass one time because it never rained. It has rained everyday almost since the summer ended. If it hasn’t rained it snowed or hailed or even sleeted. We just got over 15 in of snow in March. Even tho i should not follow politics, i am a republican who doesn’t believe in Global Warming, and to make fun of it, it snowed last summer during of of there festivals. I may be wrong about who said it, but i think it was Jesus who said that you won’t be able to tell the seasons except from the leaves on the trees. This could be the woman in labor pains the weather is getting bad in alot of areas and is getting worse, what could be around the corner?
March 25th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Trey said:
I stand corrected on the “abuser” versus “molester” bit.
As for the rest: What can one say but “Christian charity at its finest?”
Nothing like it to warm the heart.
Say Trey, I hear the Spanish Inquisition is making a comeback. Perhaps they are accepting poorly written applications.
(Just be sure to spell “pious” correctly.)
March 25th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Marie,
Give me a name…. ANY name…
A pastor w/ WCG who was GENTLE, KIND and LOVED people genuine??
March 25th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
Dewayne,
I don’t know if I believe in global warming or not. I’m not sure we have enough YEARS of records to really UNDERSTAND a weather cycle… But I could be wrong.
I DO remember however it snowed on Mother’s Day in the midwest about ten years ago. I had beautiful flowers given to me but I couldn’t pant them because the snow!
March 25th, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Banncam - uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh at a loss! Sorry….can’t really think of one. Wow! That really sucks to think about.
March 25th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
I’ll keep thinking Marie…Maybe CallieMae knows somebody… or WW?
March 25th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Dewayne- you are right about the wierd weather patterns. I think I am in agreement with Banncam - I’m not sure we have enough information to understand how the current weather patterns related to the past. I would caution to connect weather patterns to end time prophetic events or end time theories. It seems to be a real stretch to do that.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:07 pm
Jon,
You mentioned “Inquisition”…
I was involved with an inquistion once.
I went to this church youth camp, you see…up in MN…for about 4 weeks…
Some of you past members will remember that camp.
And I road a bus with a bunch of other teens to get there. Well, turns out, some of the teens got a little hot & bothered in the back of the bus and one girl turned up with a bunch of hickies on her neck. And word had it someone even saw a pack of cigarettes or something… There were probably 50 teens on this bus and I didn’t know a soul… I was 16 years old at this time, away to learn about God and his government…
The inquisition began the 2nd day there…we were all hauled in to the “office” one by one…waiting our turn to testify what we saw. Of course, I minded my own business and didn’t really even notice what was going on back there in the bus.
But this dude, I don’t know what his title was, I think he thought he was a King though, wanted answers. He wanted them REAL bad… I didn’t have any for him. I think I was close to the end of the day for him because when I went into his office, he was already worked up to a mad and so when I didn’t have names and details for him, he picked up the phone and threatened to call my dad and send me home.
This inquisition has really stuck with me all these years.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Hi Marie:
There are very few things I get “heavy” about, Marie, although genocide masquerading as love is certainly one of them. A lot of my musings are written with tongue firmly in cheek. Some are overly dramatic to encourage people to think.
I accept what you say about preaching, however. You are correct. It’s in the DNA somewhere. My honest intention is to learn, educate and inspire some lively debate.
I’ll work on the preaching part, although it’s a bit open to interpretation as to what constitutes “preaching.” Ha.
I don’t think you’re a silly bastard for believing in God. I understand the desire more than you know. I merely assert that one should understand what and why they believe in ‘anything’ that condemns the rest of the world to hell for believing the opposite.
Make sense?
Another fault of mine. I type faster than I edit.
Are you open to the possibility that such a personal experience is not sufficient evidence or reason for belief in a specific God? Especially when that specific God’s actions (see damning to hell) can be rationally deconstructed as anything BUT loving?
If personal experience is sufficient, then Thor, Zeus, Mirtha, Allah, etc. all have sufficiency for belief. They have been “revealed” to others in the same personal manner.
There is no doubt that if Jesus’ teachings concerning love of thy neighbor and utter mercy were followed, there would be no war and the world would be a better place. You are not a simple fool at all to believe that in my opinion.
But the same can be said of the teachings of the Buddha or of Ghandi, neither of whom demanded total devotion with a dash of eternal doom. Still, I have not in the camp of tossing the baby out with the bath. Christ did have some profound words of wisdom, no matter the source of those words.
“Theology” is not to blame if the scriptures in question can be reasoned hermeneutically. These concepts of God’s personality certainly fit that criteria. But yes, I would agree that much of what is in the Bible was altered and, worse, Hellenized purposefully, making it anything but “inerrant” as so many Christians assert.
Sorry for the wordiness…and thanks for the honest reply. : )
March 25th, 2008 at 11:14 pm
Okay folks,
I got to get in the bed.
See ya’ll lata!
March 25th, 2008 at 11:35 pm
Dewayne,
“First of all I can’t tell who thinks ron is false or not (lol) all you guys who are arguing back and forth, assume right now in time that he is false. The funny thing is some of you are like me and thought he was prob true but wanted to see if anyone else out there felt the same way. ”
I think it is possible he is right. He has some serious credibility in my eyes. I’m not going to step out onto the long, rickety bridge of faith over the deep, rocky crevasse and send him any tithe, but my mind is open to the possibility. I am not afraid to admit my interest in what he says, or to admit that RW resurrects and expands on some really plausible and logical scenarios of what its all about. And I think he feels these things deeply. He LOVES the bible, that’s for sure.
listener
March 25th, 2008 at 11:36 pm
Jon,
I get “heavy” about certain subjects…so I can understand…and tongue-in-cheek is cool not offended by your comments…
I guess I am probably in a minority, but, I just don’t believe that most of humanity is going to be damned to hell. Maybe I am just over-simplistic in my beliefs - that is VERY possible…I am no scholar and no brainiac as some of you who do profess atheistic or agnostic leanings. You obviously have an amazing capacity for intellectual debate. Far superior to my abilities - so I wouldn’t really try to debate - but honest discourse and exchange of ideas…yeah…I can go with that.
I do agree that the ‘experience’ that I have with God as my loving father is no proof whatsoever to any specific God. It is my experience alone and would never use as an argument to convince someone of what I believe (which is an impossibility). I just believe that I have much to focus on and to live out in my life to bring honor to the teaching and life of Jesus.
I can’t buy the thought that God created man in order to fall and mess the world up to the point of annihilation as many end time theorists do. I believe the bible as a narrative story - ambigious and not understood, but many, many stories of redemption, love and mercy abound. I’m just a part of a larger story with my part to play here on earth, where I live now. The future and all of the theories of heaven and hell I will leave to God and those who think they are smart enough to know that which remains a mystery.
Sorry my musings have gotten so wordy….guess I have a preacher in me too.
March 26th, 2008 at 5:12 am
Peter asks
“Hey Weinland Watch,
In your opinion, pretty easy question as for a yes or a no. Do you think Weinland is going to be right, as to what he said is going to go down in April?”
No. That’s the easy answer.
The more complicated answer is, what exactly is he saying will go down on the 17th? On the one hand we have what the book said, and now we have what the church says. It’s pretty clear to see the disconnect between the two.
In the book, we have death and destruction and “when it says a third of all plant life, that’s exactly what it means”. Official church correspondence to a member now says, oh wait, April 17th is when the Great Trib. is supposed to start, but “it is not known how long this could take to be completed. It could take 6 to 12 months”.
As recently as two weeks ago, Weinland was instructing members they might not be able to keep Passover, except in their own homes, and family members of church members have posted here about how members were instructed there would be no Feast of Taberbnacles this year.
Yet, in this past week’s sermon, Weinland throws in an oblique reference to Atonement, a Fall Feast.
Is the subtle thought-reform already beginning? What do you say, Peter? Yes or no?
Banncam—Nope sorry, don’t think one of those fabled creatures existed!
March 26th, 2008 at 5:31 am
WW said, “Banncam—Nope sorry, don’t think one of those fabled creatures existed!” you are refering to my wanting a name of a pastor in WCG who was genuine and loved people.
What a legacy! My father would be shocked and awed….He wouldn’t get it. He probably can name several. So then we go into the WHOLE debate on WHAT IS LOVE??? Oh yeah, that is following God’s commands! Back we LOOP-D-LOOP to the SABBATH! see how this game works people???
LOVE=SABBATH Keeping…
Ron W was REALLY speaking LOVE when he said last Saturday in his message, if you “use” the name Yeshua as Christ’s name, I’ll be the first to walk you to the door and slam it when you leave. We won’t have that in God’s church”… Of course this wasn’t the “Sabbath” Love talk, this was obeying God, love talk… His pyramid also includes….
Obeying God=Obeying RW Then we are Loop-D-Looped back around to “you must follow the government of the church” to REALLY obey God…
Loop-D-Loop…. ditty ditty… Loop-D-Loop… ditty ditty….
I hear a song…
March 26th, 2008 at 5:41 am
Hey Marie,
I TOTALLY agree with you. Although I’ve been “spun” through that “LOOPY CYCLE” described on my last post, I too have a personal experience with a “higher being” whom I call Jesus Christ, which is UNDENIABLE to me…but won’t mean anything to anyone else, which is okay of course.
I can’t debate anyone on theories and such… not enough brain power, …probly squeezed out in the “Loop juicer”…
But if I become convinced of something… like how WRONG RW is in his prophecies…and I can see in print or hear what he says DOES NOT MATCH… I will argue those points, because all I have to do is point to a page or a date of a sermon and say, “See hear… he wrote this…but it didn’t happen”… I can do this.
The abstract arguments that some people get into, sometimes is sort of like accidently coming upon a fist fight in a parking lot or viewing abstract art…Its sort of exciting yet scary, and trying to understand what is going on there…But NOT really being involved. I like it.
I also like to keep a sense of humor about different views.
EXCEPT where WCG, splinters or RW is concerned…. Not much humor…
March 26th, 2008 at 5:59 am
“I’ll escort you out the door by your ear!” Heh, yeah, that was real “loving” wasn’t it.
What I can’t figure out is why people think (and this is where I rode rather hard on Richard Saunders about this, for which I apologize to R_S) this is any sort of “indictment” at all? It’s more like well, duh! More objectionable are their actions and clear lack of conscience, in my opinion. Saying “He has no loooooooooooove!” is like saying the sky is blue.
That’s not even a minister’s job in the first place. The minister’s job is and always has been to keep the sheep in line. Hello? Is there an echo in here?? Why would anyone expect “love” from a minister? They are not there to give you the warm fuzzies, the minister’s job is to keep the money rolling in for the church. That’s true of any church, not just WCG, or its splinters.
Just ask the televangelist I saw the other day hawking “green prosperity handkerchiefs” and asking for “widows mites” on TV……..Most ministers would make good politicians! (I.e., they’re all corrupt.)
Back ontopic, I really really really think Weinland’s church is gearing up to do a major thought-reform on the whole thing, and these are just the early signs. After all, a commenter said Weinland predicted apocalypse for Y2K too, and when nothing happened then….nothing happened! Sigh.
March 26th, 2008 at 6:07 am
So far the only ’signs’ from the sky in America is 2 construction cranes falling and killing people. Both were on the East Coast - New York & Miami. If you live or work near a big crane - keep an ey to the sky. It might be the end of the world - cranes are falling everywhere…
Sorry to be sarcastic, but, man it must be a slow news day.
March 26th, 2008 at 6:13 am
Let’s make a commercial for RW’s group…
We’ll get a couple of old ladies sitting at the table drinking coffee and one of them reading RW’s book the other reading a newspaper to match world events to his God revealed proclaimations…
One of them will look up and say… “Where’s the BEEF?”
March 26th, 2008 at 6:37 am
Yeah, WW, ANYWHERE there is man…(or woman) there is corruption… So that means EVERYWHERE.
This only means we have to be watchful and careful where we put our trust, and don’t deposit it all in one person or “thing” or organization. We must diversify our trust deposits across a spectrum and see how things pan out after a bit.
We can get into the “bible” which I believe is God’s word, on prinicipal if not exactly on every word.
So…I know there are a few of you that will feel the urge to correct me, debate me, tell me I’m a dumbo…but I’m gonna stick my neck out here anyway…
When the Good Samaritan picked the man up off the street to help him, (assuming this story is true…yada yada) He didn’t ask the man, what he did to deserve the beating, why wasn’t he being more careful and looking out for robbers, or ask him if he was a criminal, drunkard or corrupt… The good samaritan simply picked up the guy and cleaned him up and provided for his recovery. Although other people saw the guy and avoided helping him.
Some would like to view this beat up guy as a good guy that had no reason to be taken over by robbers…But the story doesn’t really say that to me. It says to me, people get themselves in situations be it their doing or not, and we are to be that person that says, ‘hey man, let’s get you washed up…are you hungry?’
Corruption in people…yeah, it’s there… Making dumb decisions to be in the wrong place at the wrong time…yeah we do that too, everybody does it…People just sometimes get involved with things they KNOW BETTER, but they for some reason, just can’t resist……
So we are all on a level playing field, so walking up to someone who is in the ditch and needs help should be no big deal. We don’t have to invite them to live with us, or take care of them forever, but we can show compassion and give them a little boost.
What I’m refering to here is… we don’t have to give our money to ANY organization to be helping people in need. And we don’t have to find out if the person in need is a crook or not before we help them.
March 26th, 2008 at 6:41 am
Those TV preachers get me boiling too. I watch them sometimes and wonder HOW could anybody send them their money? How could anybody believe them? But after listening to RW… HOW could MY OWN family believe him?
The problem is, people want to BELIEVE IN SOMEBODY…they don’t even want to BELIEVE IN THEMSELVES…it MUST be someone else… I’d first say BELIEVE in Jesus, but they want to believe in someone they can touch and hear in a verbal voice.
You guys probably picked up on … the “help” I refer to is very LOCAL to those around me, less to do with people outside where I live, although I did send money to a couple organizations when the Sunami and Katrina hit. I don’t know if every penny I sent went to those in need, I don’t know if the executive at the top level had a big ole steak on my money, but I felt led by the Holy Spirit and I sent them money. I still feel like I did the right thing.
March 26th, 2008 at 6:52 am
Earthquake in Hawaii, inactive for 30 years, about to blow, started venting ! ooooo, midwest still flooding
March 26th, 2008 at 6:58 am
Yes Jack… we know…
We know there are rumblings….there have been for several years now…
But RW nor his “God Given Revelations” are bringing them on… He must be having a little “interference” with his communications from God because DATES that were supposedly “GIVEN” to him by providence in 2006 ARE NOT MET…
He said in 2006 God gave him the details…but in 2008…they didn’t happen as supposedly God had revealed…
So, either God didn’t REALLY reveal them, or he is having a REAL communication problem with God, or he has a terrific horrific imagination or he’s a KOOK, NUT CASE…
I say ALL of those things.
March 26th, 2008 at 7:04 am
By the way Jack,
RON said in one of his sermon’s, the bible reference to “the earthquakes” erupting DOES’T REALLY mean…earthquakes litterally… He sort of snickered and said, something like… “these people out here trying to understand what God means here, I feel so sorry for them…” (not exact quote, but REAL close) Those EARTHQUAKES the bible refers to are SPIRITUAL things that happened WITHIN the COG… It doesn’t apply to ANYONE outside the COG…
So, Hawaill earthquakes mean NOTHING to RW…
Sorry, I didn’t mean to sound so mean, I’m just pointing out…yes, we all pretty much agree here on this blog that there are REAL environmental things going on out there…but what we are debating, but I believe pretty much agree on also, RW has NOTHING to do with world events, although HE believes HE does.
March 26th, 2008 at 7:13 am
im well read on RW and all his sermons, just being sarcastic, but i will be posting events, just to play devils advocate!
March 26th, 2008 at 7:15 am
Oh okay, sorry Jack…
I’m getting too crotchety me thinks…
March 26th, 2008 at 8:05 am
Hi Jon!
I expected a lengthy reply from you, and you didn’t disappoint! Listen, before I say anything, the God/no-God/which-God debate has been around since whenever the beginning was. I’ll spare everyone here a continuation. But please permit me to rebut a couple things - JUST to explain MY views (I make no assertion as to facts and speak for no one but myself). Because, boy oh boy, you’ve had a rough go with religion and you don’t need me preaching at you.
You asked “‘..we are responsible for a supposed flood that eradicated all life on earth..?” IMHO, yes. Is a child responsible for receiving punishment due to their own actions? Yes. The disconnect between what you’re saying and what I’m saying is the severity of God’s punishment. You seem to feel that a loving God should not wipe out life on earth. I feel it is His planet and He can do whatever He feels is necessary. (Perhaps the worse choice was to let things continue like they were.) Why this, then, if He is so loving? Because: there’s more to life than THIS life. If he kills them, then later restores them to life as promised, what is lost? One might think - that’s overtly traumatic! And caner isn’t? War isn’t? Crucification isn’t? Sucking out brains with a tube isn’t? Many such violent deaths we cause but I rarely see people taking time from patting themselves on the back to condemn themselves in the terms with which they condemn God. Well, God counters that He both can and will wipe away all tears and heal all wounds. Can a human do that? As a professing Christian, I have to take Him on His word.
You said “[I] assume that we ‘turned away’ from something over time”. But I don’t. I believe that we have been just as evil over time as we are now. I believe that Cain killed his brother in a jealous rage. I believe Balaam was a false prophet just like Ron Weinland. And Herbert Armstrong as well!
I should let you know that I do not believe in hell. I find no evidence for it outside of the everlasting torment that Satan must endure (after being cast to the earth from heaven) - which idea is greatly misunderstood since the rest of the Bible very strongly hints that Satan will be killed. I conclude torment referred to is separation from God.
You ask: “What part of keeping no records of wrong do you not understand?” Apparently - your view of it. But here’s mine: Since His intention is to wipe any such record out of existence in front of everyone; the former things will pass away and come to mind no more. Thus He keeps no records. We are to be judged by our GOOD works.
“The Bible states categorically that very few will be saved. Very, very few.” I am very sorry that someone has so wronged you as to instill in you such an idea about the loving God. Yes, it does in one area say what may lead you to believe what you do. However, I propose that taking the entirety of the Bible’s claims on salvation holistically, a more clear understanding will come through. Jesus also says in MATT 18: 14 that it is God’s will not one should be lost. A contradiction, you say? I have come to understand the issue is the “phases” of the plan God has in mind tend to trip people up. Most people are unaware of any “phases” since they were taught what would most effectively scare the money from their pockets. We tend to think so “now” whereas an eternal being would not. This life is only a phase in an eternal plan. Being “saved” is clearly coming in waves. Perhaps a very few will miss the first wave, but not the second (the first only exists to guarantee the success of the second).
You say “your beliefs cannot tolerate critical thought”. I don’t take that personally since you said it wasn’t (though I don’t entirely believe you when you say that because it clearly is directed at me). However you’re mistaken. You say God willfully created evil. An old argument. Einstein countered it. Was he not a critical thinker?
I understand that you believe you’ve reached a higher level of understanding since abandoning old chains of faith - which I feel you were RIGHT to abandon. You wouldn’t have left your faith if you didn’t see something better out there. But let’s be fair here - either of us could make that empty assertion, thus it cancels itself out logically.
I put much thought into my faith. Some of it is based on Bible study, and some on real events in my life and the lives of others, some on fulfilled prophecy, some on history, some on study of other points of view that come up short in my opinion, and some on good old blind faith. I take the Bible holistically and think critically about it. Thus I don’t believe in hell, for example. You appear to me to have taken what your whole being told you was simply incorrect about the teachings you received (that same thing happened to me), and opted to leave the Bible behind rather than disprove the people who mis-taught you by proving what really is that good and acceptable will of God. Do what you will, I’m not your judge. I chose a different path. I do ask you to reconsider that I am incapable of putting critical thought into my faith.
And some minor points: I’m more than aware of the Passion Play, thank you. I used to be Catholic. “Second, an all-powerful Deity need not rip the flesh off ANYONE to prove anything.” - apparently, He disagrees with your opinion. Third, You say some of the worst times in history were when men were ruled by Christians. I say those men were not Christians, despite what they claim. A Christian is a follower of Christ, and Christ forbids those things that were done in His name. If I claim to follow Epicurus, but practice Cyrenaism, I’m no Epicurean regardless of what I say.
I don’t see why you believe this isn’t a thread about helping people. Atheists help people too. I don’t assert you’re in the wrong place, either. I take weinlandwatch at his word when he does a great job describing “We are talking about him so the truth will be out there. So people who go to the Internet and plug Weinland’s name, or the name of his church, into a search engine, will get the full story, not just the church’s own website and recruiting tools.” Sounds like help to me! If this is merely a blog about atheism, or tearing down a false prophet without concern for those he’s hurting, and weinlandwatch isn’t correct in his discription, then I offer my sincerest apologies to all whose time I’ve wasted here and I will bother you no further.
If I had to actually complain about anything that you said, I would complain about the double standard. Over an again you made it clear that I have assumptions: “You are misguided in your assumptions.” Then you claim that you have facts: “To state facts about an individual…”. I would suggest a compromise and let’s agree that what we all have are our own differing views and opinions, flaws and all, and neither of us are in full possession of facts. I’m on a journey - I haven’t reached my destination yet.
March 26th, 2008 at 8:49 am
Jack;
Are you referring to “volcanos” erupting? Last time I checked earthquakes don’t “blow”, and there is volcanic activity on Hawaii presently. Mt.Kilauea. Is this your reference point?
March 26th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Richard Saunders said: “I’m on a journey - I haven’t reached my destination yet.”
I KNEW I liked you…
I’m on that journey too. I LOVE it! whew!
I just want my family off the ‘path’ created by RW and all the WCG splinters. The journey where NO MAN creates the path is the BEST!
March 26th, 2008 at 9:14 am
Hear hear!
(My journey isn’t christologically-based but that’s OK. Right?)
March 26th, 2008 at 9:21 am
Richard Saunders said: “I take the Bible holistically and think critically about it. Thus I don?t believe in hell, for example.”
AMEN!! At least the hell described as eternally being tortured and burned….and many, many, many people being there - including those who have never heard of Jesus….
We ARE on a journey and don’t have all the answers…there are parts of the Bible that shock my sense of what a ‘good God’ would/should look like. Unresolved questions and disturbing scenes brought about in the ancient writings of the bible serve to spur us on to ask more questions and seek more answers. Not such a bad process to be involved in.
March 26th, 2008 at 9:23 am
amen and pass the ammo
March 26th, 2008 at 9:24 am
all logical and great answers and rebuttals on all sides of the subject.(even with mispellings…) lol
March 26th, 2008 at 9:40 am
WW- You’re ALL right!!! Thanks for the work you do.
March 26th, 2008 at 9:48 am
Yes WW!! YOU are alright!
March 26th, 2008 at 9:58 am
Richard Saunders & Jon,
This is basically correct, although I like to think of my blog as that of a person who happens to be an atheist, as although many of my posts have something to do with debunking religion and upholding a naturalistic world view, the general commission of this blog is, “Anything Ironwolf thinks is interesting.”
As it so happens I also find interest the particular breed of self-destructing false prophet of which Weinland is virtually certainly an example (the only other vanishingly remote possibility being that he is a true prophet) that chooses to set dates in the relative near term. You can see my other posts on the topic of such false prophets here, and I’m also accepting nominations.
March 26th, 2008 at 9:59 am
Listener,
I think you reflect what many (not all) people thought or were thinking when they end up finding this Blog. You can read my responses starting back in part 4 or 5. P