Ron Weinland: Discussion Part 15
As the saying goes, “Good programmers are lazy.” I got lazy and decided to stop figuring out how much time is left until Ronald Weinland is done like a turkey, so I asked Ronny to keep track for me. Thanks, Ron!
Can you say, fair use? I knew you could!Part 1 Basic info and links.
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5 FAQ
Part 6
Part 7
Part 8
Part 9
Part 10
Part 11
Part 12
Part 13
Part 14
April 7th, 2008 at 10:27 pm
The only thunders that I’m hearing are “WW! Come Back, WW!!”
And those thunders will not cease until WW returns!!!!
WW!!! When you are all rested up, we want you back…K? We have a cold brew waiting for you in the fridge!
Waytencee: put a lid on it, dude!!!
April 7th, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Ironwolf,
When I got to this page, I laughed my head off!
1) They all want to look like Herbie in their photos
2) who the H_ll wears cuff links anymore???
April 7th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
I’m a huge sports fan…and love basketball. Kansas deserved to win, they are the best team this year….as much as it hurts me to say! I was cheering for them, but, never would admit it to my friends!
I got to hear part of the RW interview today and read the transcript….it just really gets to me how he stumbles and bumbles and makes no sense to the listener who is not already familiar with what he is saying. He brings up ‘this trumpet’ and ‘that trumpet’ and ‘this city’ and ‘that country’. It would be impossible to follow unless you knew where he was coming from. Of course the radio host thinks he is a complete loon - and - you could just hear it in his voice and some of the questions he asked.
The thing that struck me the most was what he didn’t say. Why in the world would you be an end time ‘prophet’ and not tell the folks out here about God and tell them to ‘repent’ ‘change your ways’ ‘make right with God’ ‘make right with your neighbor’. Not a word…just…this is going - no sorry - gonna happen - this is gonna happen….totally screw-ball, off the wall…and as someone else stated - cold, calculating….
April 7th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
I think his stumbling and mumbling showed so much in the interview today, because I think he is really starting to loose it. When he preaches for his own flock he sounds so full of himself, but today I thought he sounded week and nervous, and not sure of his direction. Poor guy, don’t your hearts just bleed purple peanut butter for him?
April 7th, 2008 at 11:58 pm
I was referring to anyone who made the Matthews claim, and to you for bringing it up…ridiculous…and Ironwolf i’m NOT happy about ww leaving, i
don’t want anyone to leave, i WANt people to have differing opinions, i just don’t like when people attack the poster, instead of attacking the post…its fucken stupid…PLEASE wienlandwatch, if you don’t feel like posting than don’t post, don’t be a drama queen and try to make this whole blog about you and your dramatic exit…you’re attacking me for no good reason, and I’m just questioning the logic behind it (notice the lols, it was actually funny to me because i was guessing it was some sort of misunderstanding)…and you’re upset??? And that “Rotten Ron’s fanclub members” I’m not supposed to view that as an attack either, am I misquoting that too???
Stop clowning man, I don’t know what the cog has done to you guys to have you so much on the edge, or maybe you’re too old to realize how blog conversations work but you’re taking some of this stuff too serious….stop it with the name calling, if i was in RW’s fan club I’d proclaim to be…RW is a man, a guy I saw on google one day when i started a list to look for people who’s teachings could be inspired by god and one of my criteria was their info would be free and then i found his page…that doesn’t mean i’m his cheerleader, i came here for answers and discussion from VARIOUS points of view, I ask questions because i want people who might have more experience with his church to give me straight answers so I can form an educated opinion about RW…I came from a site where it was all RW lovers talking about how great he was on every post…the the exact opposite here…some one brings up questions and they’re called an RW fanboy…please…please stop it…
have you realized its all RW haters here left cept 2 or 3 ppl??? Wtf is there to debate about if that’s the case?
I can’t make it more clear…RW is JUST a man, this isn’t just what i feel, its what i know…if in fact the .0000001% chance that he’s actually being worked with by god is true and his prophetic claims end up becoming reality…he’s still JUST a man that GOD is doing HIS (GOD’s) work through for the sake of saving EVERYONE from themselves….If the 99.99999% chance that he’s false ends up being clear on the 17th and after….then those of you here who seem to feel you already know he’s 100% false have to give some thought about why you’ve spent so much time here…Its not to warn others because those who will be corrupted will not heed to any warnings…and I can protect myself (with God’s guidance)…which is why I came to a blog, and still am at this blog mostly of RW haters, and NOT mailing tithes to COG-PGK…9 days, lets cut out the foolishness and debate so no matter what we come out wiser from it all….
waytenceewatch
April 7th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Ironwolf,
The clock is freaking hilarious!
Marie, I agree with you. He just doesn’t sound like a prophet should. He should be preaching about prayer and not about his critics!
April 8th, 2008 at 12:10 am
Purple peanut butter????
Hmm.. That’s different. Lol
April 8th, 2008 at 4:32 am
Waytncee:
Why do you think there’s still any chance that False Prophet Ron Weinland’s predictions will come true, when his earlier ones have not?
Have you heard any “thunders”?
http://ironwolf.dangerousgames.com/blog/archives/503#comment-51245
I sure haven’t. FPRW was shown to be a False Prophet on March 18 when his thunders were not sounding. And not just any one of them — all of them.
If FPRW is doing god’s work, as you claim, then god is crazy or abusive, or both. No, people don’t need to be saved from themselves as you state. They need to be saved from False Prophet Ron Weinland.
April 8th, 2008 at 4:59 am
waytenceewatch,
you said: ‘I came from a site where it was all RW lovers talking about how great he was on every post…the the exact opposite here’
Where is this site, can you post a link?
April 8th, 2008 at 5:08 am
I want to read that blog too!
April 8th, 2008 at 5:10 am
I LOVE the photo….! ha ha ha
My hubby saw it and laughed….he said, “That photo says ‘I’m the MAN!”
ha ha ha
what a kook!
April 8th, 2008 at 5:15 am
To waytenceewatch
The most telling comment in your last post was this one :-
The fact is they have been trying very hard to explain that over the last 14 pages of this blog.
You also wrote :-
I think you are too young to realize that with age comes experience and wisdom. Also you appear to be rather immature. This isn’t a game that is played on the internet. The posters have been writing about things that are very serious. There are many people in RW’s flock who will suffer greatly.
It would be best if you gave it a rest until after the 17th. If nothing happens on that day it should be obvious to everyone that history repeats itself.
April 8th, 2008 at 5:18 am
waytenceewatch,
Just so you know, some of us wade through a lot of childish and uninformed posts for “news” and to see what those who have not made up their minds will say. Thank you for sticking with it.
April 8th, 2008 at 5:28 am
listener:
Can you explain the lack of thunders? The ones which according to False Prophet Ron Weinland would be “so pronounced that the
validity of everything written about them in the previous chapter
should roar loudly in the ears of anyone who is willing to admit
the truth”
April 8th, 2008 at 5:39 am
This blog isn’t about me or you or anyone its about discussion. People might’ve gone through issues with the COG but its nothing new under the sun people face “abuses” and misguidance across the world from various churches its not limited to COG, its ANY and EVERY church. And I understand wisdom comes with age, but there IS a game being played when people aren’t reading my comments for what they are and are drawing their own conclusions which aren’t remotely stated in my posts…that’s a game…when people are telling other people where I stand because I want to hear a sermon before I read THEIR commentary…that’s a game…especially when I state I have since read it…and the site was you can google it it was some forum that hosts a lot of threads about end times and conspiracy theories. And it wasn’t informative because it seemed a lot of ppl there were either RW followers or the same person posting under dif names. And as for thunders I’ve started lists on and off what might seem like a thunder to me wouldn’t necessarily be seen as such by you…and even if RW is false these are things that I find extremely disturbing about the state of the world….and don’t tell me to put a lid on it when are you’re barely reading my posts…if you tell everyone who disagrees with you to put a lid on it why bother coming to a thread like this??? The point of my past few posts were to stop posting nonsense about posters and keep the discussion going and you guys show your maturity by ganging up on me w/o bothering to read the few posts I’ve had on here which aren’t offensive and simply stating what i think could or might happen.
If i make pt. A, i expect to read counterpoint A, i made a post yesterday and Firestorm responded and i’m still thinking about what he/she said…thats the way its supposed to work, not Point A, replied with “HE’S IN THE RW FANCLUB, PUT A LID ON IT”….
April 8th, 2008 at 5:40 am
Listener,
You think we are childish?….Because we tell you REAL life experiences with WCG? You are so uninformed.
You are cold, Just like Jay29 was.
Matthew 24:12
I’m glad you haven’t joined RW’s group, but if you don’t take a strong position against it…you are hurting any who listen to you and go ahead and join. They will regret it…and you probably will not know what you have done, unless you join too and find out for yourself.
April 8th, 2008 at 5:48 am
You said: “People might’ve gone through issues with the COG but its nothing new under the sun people face “abuses” and misguidance across the world from various churches its not limited to COG, its ANY and EVERY church.”
You are right about this…
But the people who have been abused and taken advantage of OWE IT to the rest of the “would be” followers to tell what they know…so as to SAVE others from making the same mistake.
I don’t care what is going on in the world, weather it seems like a thunder or not. If 10 hurricanes HIT the US this April or May, I’ll NOT follow RW!
I am convinced GOD would NOT use someone who goes on a radio show and doesn’t even mention, with a concerned heart for his fellow Americans or MANKIND for that matter to REPENT and turn to Christ….!!!
If you believe the BIBLE at all, you MUST know it is ALL about CHRIST and turning to HIM…
Jesus Christ is an “AFTERTHOUGHT” for RW and COG/splinters… HOW many times was the sacrafice or blood of Christ mentioned in his last week sermon where he spoke on the Passover…???? NOT MUCH!!!
You people who want to “sort of” believe RW are NOT focusing on Jesus Christ…YOU are focusing on RW…who is calling you to follow HIM.
If you want to have an “open mind” about world events….that is one thing…but to give THIS LOONEY KOOK any respect … is plain ignorant.
I hope you who are thinking he is God’s witness will WISE up and look toward Christ and see if RW is pointing you to Christ.
April 8th, 2008 at 5:50 am
Actually, RW’s wife as the second witness makes sense. As a woman, she has no value or voice in the COGs. He can tell her to keep her mouth shut while he does all the talking and makes all the decisions. She presents no threat to his authority whatsoever. There have to be two witnesses, and she makes the perfect “Teller” to RW’s “Penn”.
April 8th, 2008 at 5:50 am
RW=NUT CASE, FALSE PROPHET who is already exposed and will be put to shame by July
April 8th, 2008 at 5:52 am
Yes Watcher!
YOU are correct. It makes perfect sense to a control freak like Weinland.
He will control the money and what is done/said.
This should be a MAJOR RED FLAG for clear thinking people
April 8th, 2008 at 6:03 am
Stones NZ said, “The posters have been writing about things that are very serious. There are many people in RW’s flock who will suffer greatly.”
You are correct! The spiritual damage is HUGE. I personally know people who left WCG who have been in therapy for years over issues!!!
Lives get screwed up, marriages end, children make LIFE decisions because of “end-time” prophecies. I have a nephew quitting college because of the ending of the world. Mortgages don’t get paid. Some will not pay their taxes THIS YEAR! Some will hastily marry someone just to experience marriage before the world turns to chaos. Many parents will kick their kids out of their homes for “not complying”… There are Financial RUINs which come from this type of thing.
Right NOW families are being split between the “believers” and “non-believers”… Here is the scripture they use to prove it is okay
Matthew 12:47-49
This is REAL damage being done because people are believing in THE MAN instead of BELIEVING in the bible. COG/splinters & RW are all destructive cults. We who have been there and left them KNOW IT. Everyone else can debate whether or not its true, but WE KNOW ITS TRUE.
Call it whatever you want. Truth is still truth, even if people won’t believe it. Lies are still lies EVEN if everyone believe them.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:35 am
Matthew 7:15-23
If you believe the bible (I say this because there are some on this blog who don’t)
This states there will be some WHO PROPHECIED in HIS name…yet the Lord did not know them. What distinquishes a true prophet from a false one???
I believe it will be WHAT HE SAYS and HOW HE SAYS IT
April 8th, 2008 at 7:03 am
When all of this is said and done - the whole of RW’s fame should be found in the DSM manual (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders). The guy has spent way too much time listening to Herbert Armstrong (not God) and spent way too much time thinking about how to fit his own person and his own way of thinking into these loony statements he is making. There are many, many signs and wonders happening now - thunders and seals being opened…..it is all happening in RW’s brain. They guy seriously needs therapy….as well as everybody that follows him to varying degrees.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:05 am
Amen Sista!
April 8th, 2008 at 7:21 am
Watcher, Your take on his wife being the 2nd witness makes a lot of sense to me too, what better way to stay in complete control of everything? What a plan!!! His mug shot iornwolf, is priceless! When I look at him I see a one eyed one horn flying purple people eater! But I can’t help for feeling a little sympathy for his poor wife. She must be living a pure HELL! Living w/ such a dictator. I wonder if she even has any of her marbles left??
April 8th, 2008 at 7:22 am
Somoone said:
Well that just says it all doesn’t it.
The Bible does say it would be like this. The BIBLE … not Ron W.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:31 am
I’ve said this before, but I’ll repost because it’s very hard to go back and find anything.
Like John Greenberg (who was drummed out of the ‘blog) I want to be very careful whom I believe to be a prophet, false or true. Someday God will send the two witnesses, and so far I think RW could be one.
I’ve read his books and listened to his sermons, I’ve been reading the Bible a lot more quickly than I usually do (BSF meeting and weekly church services); especially the apocalyptic parts like Daniel, Matthew and Revelation. Though it is exhausting looking up the OT references, NIV notes, etc. Somehow it is making more sense to me than it ever has. Could this be a revelation by God? Maybe. But of course, when someone has a revelation, it sounds like foolishness to others. That’s the way it has always been throughout the bible, and that won’t change. I am not here to change anyone’s mind, but I am VERY INTERESTED in what RW is saying because it could be true.
What I picked out of his sermons is that the 7 increasingly loud thunders of the 6th seal (9/11 according to RW), which happen along with the opening of the 7th seal and beyond, are:
1) Terror of war
2) Earthquakes
3) Destructiveness from weather
4) Global economic upheaval
5) Death in the COG and other notable people
6) Revelation of God’s end-time witnesses
7) Accelerated revelation of God to man (the Holy Spirit at work)
So for me, history and current events are suddenly SO MUCH more interesting. Things like the evolution and proliferation of WMD (shock and horror), climate change (shock and horror), the 2004 tsunami (shock and horror), 2004 Hurricane Katrina (shock and horror), the sub-prime mortgage abyss, emergency preparedness, the Cold War, relations between North and South Korea, on and on. The tough part about understanding current events is you also have to have a pretty solid understanding of history. Unfortunately, I slept through my high school and college history classes.
I hope I am not the only one who is in shock and horror at the lies and deceit on the part of the US government regarding the build up to the Iraq war, and what’s happened since we have been there. (Please watch the Frontline production entitled Bush’s War if you haven’t). Oh, and I am watching the Naomi Wolf video….not sure what I think about that yet.
Gotta go to work, but I’ll check back later.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:34 am
If you read about the end times yourself … and not just by listening to Ron W…. you’ll see that the 2 witnesses are not especialy liked once they start with the “hellfire” stuff.
If it turns out that he is real … I don’t think there will be anyone “following” him…. they in fact both become enemys of humanity. His presumed “death” at the end is looked at as a good thing by most people.
In other words … NO one is going to “like” the real prophet … its clear some of us have a head start on that.
It was the same thing with Jesus … his OWN people turned on him at the end.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:45 am
Oh yeah Benncam…
Is Christ telling you to call people “stupid” and ignore their posts?
Is Christ telling you to shut out others ideas completely?
Is Christ telling you to “disrespect” ANYONE?
April 8th, 2008 at 7:51 am
I wonder what Kattii Dauer thinks about RW going to Isreal to announce the second witness? Didn’t she believe she was the one?
April 8th, 2008 at 7:54 am
Out of curiosity, I ordered a copy of RW’s book from his website a couple of weeks ago. It has yet to arrive. I wonder if it’s being “updated”? Does anyone know the date it was last printed? It might be interesting to compare notes if they put out a revised edition.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:09 am
So…. when the next 9 days and 13 hours come and go… AND we don’t have Hell Fire and Brimstone raining down on us… Do the COG members have a legal position to go after Mr. Weinland and the money he has taken on false prophecy?
This isn’t just faith based teaching… This guy has sworn to be something he is not… has demanded and received money based on false misrepresentation!
April 8th, 2008 at 8:27 am
Looking at the picture up top…Ron’s globe is ROUND!!!
April 8th, 2008 at 8:33 am
Watcher, I have the 2nd book God’s Final Witness, it is dated: October 2006. isbn: 0-9753240-7-1 (softcover) I have the other one too, but right now I cannot find it, I will keep looking for it, and if I find it, I will let you know.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:36 am
Hey Watcher,
In Ronnie’s last sermon he said ONLY people who are baptized will be receiving the book because it is out of print, they have limited numbers and those being baptized need to read it.
In a different sermon he said something like the members need to read it and re-read it. If they don’t, they might as well quit because they don’t want to be UNIFIED with the body of Christ.
So, if he keeps to his word (and why would he) you won’t be getting the book.
Of course yesterday on the radio interview he agreed when Mike suggested the books would arrive to those who order them before the sound of the 1st trumpet on April 17th.
So…how can we really know what Ronnie means???????
You can download the book from the website though.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:40 am
Remember….I believe ON the EDGE radio interview Ronnie Boy said if things did not happen before April 08, he’d come back on the show and say he was a false prophet.
Of course he’s NOW giving himself till Labor Day…..
by the time August rolls around, he’ll say Thanksgiving….(as Marie suggested)
When November gets here, he’ll say January, before the new president is elected.
When the end of December comes, he’ll say His prophecies are ALL still correct, God just revealed his “year cycle” was wrong…
This is exactly what HWA did…
MY dad still says HWA’s prophecies are in effect…HWA just had the “year cycle” wrong…. So, according to COG you can be a TRUE prophet, only have the year cycle when the events occur wrong…
???? hhhhmmmmm
April 8th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Hey! I could be a prophet, Prophecying about a prophet…
If I’m wrong on my dates…. my prophecies could still be correct, just the wrong time frame
April 8th, 2008 at 8:43 am
I found it. “The Prophesied END-TIME” Dated: June 2004 isbn: 978-0-9753240-1-1 (softcover)
April 8th, 2008 at 8:45 am
You said, “Do the COG members have a legal position to go after Mr. Weinland and the money he has taken on false prophecy?”
I’d like a bunch of us to pool our funds together and help them pay for legal costs to get their money back… I think there are probably enough exCOG to help them….
But, chances are he’ll have spent it all and you can’t get blood out of a turnip from what i hear… of course, if you are one of the 2 final witnesses you probably can.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:46 am
Re: 7 Thunders
Pg 86 of 2008 GFW specifies the Thunders were to take place during the 6th Seal - “The timing for the Seven Thunders is during the period of the Sixth Seal”.
These events were specifically the ones which RW writes were of his choosing - as the proofs he is who he says he is - (one of the 2 witnesses & spokesman for both).
According to RW, we are now in the period of the 7th Seal, which he says was opened Mar 18/07 - The 6th Seal period, which he described as a period of transition, has passed - Those 7 thunders did not happen.
Another inconsistency - RW says April 17th/08 will begin his job as Witness #1 and Witness #2 will not be announced until April 19th/08.
He that has ears, let him hear.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Thank you Duped for another reminder! We can’t have too many!
April 8th, 2008 at 9:09 am
When the end of December comes, he’ll say His prophecies are ALL still correct, God just revealed his “year cycle” was wrong…
This is exactly what HWA did…
That is why stretch armstrong is called stretch armstrong.
Because he has incredible stretching powers!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lw17Pb7Nso
Notice how stretch armstrong can also jumble up itself then goes back to normal as if nothing happened….the similarities are endless.
wikipedia: “The doll was re-issued in the 1990s with a canine sidekick,
“Fetch Armstrong.”
A sidekick you say? Hmmmmmm
April 8th, 2008 at 9:13 am
FUNNY!
April 8th, 2008 at 9:14 am
Hmmm … I think you could use the word “slinky” to describe some people in here.
Unwilling to even attempt to answer the hard legitimate questions.
April 8th, 2008 at 9:24 am
I’ll hand it to you guys … I am starting to aquire a really bad distaste in my mouth for the COG church … the history of it … and everything to do with it.
Not because of Ron W. But because of YOU people. Yes … maybe you are on the right side of things NOW … good for you … praise the Lord… but your attitude and methods for getting it accross are the same as HIS.
I was not impressed in his last sermon with all of his “ridicule” using words like “reatarded” to decribe his detractors… and I am not impressed with the language of riducule here.
It’s like i’ve stumbled into some kind of sick family fued.
You are all nuts.
I will agree that it is dangerous for me to say anything that your friends and loved ones may latch onto in order to justify whatever they are doing “for Ron” …. but at the same time … I am equally concerned that some of you may actually BLAME ME ….
So congratualations … you have convinced me that COG and Ron W sucks.
Doesn’t change my view that there is MORE to look at and to see… and to believe … when it comes to the book of revalations. This thing is bigger than the COG church … and it is bigger than all of us.
I think i’ll go debate Jon on the existence of God now.
April 8th, 2008 at 9:27 am
Watcher, if you can no longer get the books from the web site, I just ck’ed on e-bay and there are a few of each book listed there. Just search by the books titles.
April 8th, 2008 at 9:51 am
Todaysfate,
If you are finally disgusted with all things COG and RW, consider it a blessing. Those of us who were involved in any way with the COGs can tell you that there is a complete lack of love, mercy, joy, and fellowship in the vast majority of those groups. While I am a Christian and maintain my practice of keeping the Sabbath and holy days, I have done so for years in the privacy of my home with my family. We decorate, eat special foods, and generally have a really great time. And we have always had our children (gasp!) fully participate in the Passover.
One can be a believer and live the life of a Christian without the misery associated with being involved with a COG congregation. One of the best parts is that you can support any charitable groups you wish, or even help out a neighbor or friend in trouble, rather than sending your tithes to some huckster in a fancy suit.
The greedy, the self-important, and the control freaks have for centuries taken the simple concept of loving and taking care of each other and turned it into a scheme to line their own pockets and feed their enormous egos. I don’t believe Jesus ever intended for this to happen.
I know many of the people posting here are not believers, and if they have had a COG experience I can certainly understand why they began to question. But if you are a believer, do yourself a favor and step out into the sunshine. Being a Christian is about your relationship with God, not your relationship with a group, minister, or would-be prophet. Find some joy.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:17 am
I found an interesting article in the paper this morning titled “Local Nuke War Would Cause World Havoc”
http://www.journalgazette.net/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080407/API/804071602&template=apart
Does this sound like a plea from the US that nobody should consider nukes, or could it be a possible warning for the US citizens that it is an extreme possibility?
Thoughts, opinions, emotional response?
April 8th, 2008 at 10:29 am
When I think of nuke attacks I usually think of ground zero and radiation poisoning miles around that…never really considered how far spread the damage could be…I think this is another reason people are into end-times these days…at every point in history people have thought they’re age could be the last, but today we currently…even without building one more weapon…have the means to destroy most if not all human life on earth…fortunately for us in the US, most countries with nukes (cept for Russia and China) would have a hard time reaching us. But that doesn’t eliminate the damage that could be done with a few smaller “dirty” nukes.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:42 am
During the Cold War, the US and Russia both came VERY close to launching counter-attacks to what ended up being false reports. Nowadays, with more than a half a dozen ‘nuclear countries’ and the proliferation of terrorist cells, the tension has to be astounding for those people who have their fingers on the little red button.
That being said, I believe that people are more nervous today (and rightly so, in my opinion) because of the ‘dirty’ bomb capability that you speak of. I also believe that when nuclear war starts (I don’t know when, but I believe that it WILL eventually), it will be a terrorist act, and not as simple as one country against another.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:02 am
The thing about the dirty bombs that worries me more than the death and injuries is the chaos that’ll ensue…people will be looting and going wild and not even police will be able to contain them…so even if you live outside of the damage zone you’ll have to worry about random people storming your house for food…cuz i dont think anyone can debate a nuke in the US big or small will not be good for the economy.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:34 am
Found this earlier today. Look down where is says ” Later in 2008: 2008-APR-17:”
http://www.religioustolerance.org/endwrl14.htm
Do you suppose that is Ron himself or one of his followers? I thought (could be wrong here) that Ron told his followers to stay in the shadows and not to go around writing letters and posting on blogs.
And, I agree with you waytenceewatch, the chaos, looting, and violence after a ‘dirty’ nuke would be more detrimental to America than the bomb itself would.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:38 am
Now here’s another who claims to be the “second witness”. Good grief, they’re everywhere. Bad luck for Mrs. W and Kattii D. for that matter.
http://lionkingkvk.sulekha.com/blog/post/2008/02/wwiii-reasons-why-ronald-weinland-is-right.htm
April 8th, 2008 at 11:44 am
Ha Ha…
April 8th, 2008 at 11:50 am
I think the greatest lie foisted on the COGs over the years was that the Gospel consisted of the “witness and warning” the Armstrongs were supposedly called to give the world. It was all about punishment, death, and dire predictions. Hardly “good news”.
Unfortunately, it is just this hook used by people like RW to gain followers and extort money. Attract attention with a scary scenario, make it sound like you’re right on target and have inside information, and convince people they can’t possibly find such truth outside the organization. Let’s face it, prophecy is a money maker. Ask Hal Lindsey and his ilk. The more mundane stuff, like loving your neighbor, just doesn’t draw a crowd.
Rest assured, I do believe in the return of Christ and that we will come pretty close to destroying ourselves before He steps in. But there is an ebb and flow to civilizations, bad times, and good times. I fear that some people have gotten caught up in the “buzz” they get from listening to people like RW speak. It’s akin to the thrill we get reading a ghost story or watching a scary movie. Somehow, it makes the Bible more interesting, and gee, aren’t we understanding things we never understood before?! Surely, this is revelation straight from the Holy Spirit!
Prophecy, particularly one man’s version of it, is not the Gospel and is certainly not something on which to stake your future. The Gospel is about the Kingdom and how we can enter in. It isn’t about the fear and misery mankind inevitably brings on itself.
People like RW feed on fear, and far too many are willing to set the table for them.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:57 am
Duped: “Another inconsistency - RW says April 17th/08 will begin his job as Witness #1 and Witness #2 will not be announced until April 19th/08.”
This is getting to the point of: Just listen to what (I) we say in blind faith and don’t go looking for any evidence because you know it’s true type of deal he has going here.
On April 17th if nothing happens then on that day everybody can make that same claim that they too are official final end time witnesses/prophets because everyone has their word to back it up!
In radio interview when asked what would differentiate him from other prophets he replied”April.”
So if I myself can claim be an official end time Prophet on April 17th then Ronald Weinland cannot be a prophet because he has not ‘differentiated’ himself from the rest of the self proclaimed prophets around the world.
No more wiggle room Mr. False Prophet.
What his followers believe will be left to the exit counselors and psychologists to figure out.
April 8th, 2008 at 11:59 am
I’m not sure what todaysfate thinks we should be saying to people about COG. Should we be saying, “Poor Herbert W. Armstrong, may he rest in peace. He was just a misled soul who meant well. He didn’t mean to take the tithes and buy himself his own private jet…bless his heart. He didn’t mean to sap any hope out of his followers.”
I’ll go back to my analogy of the delapidated bridge. Should I say, “Poor cute, little bridge…it doesn’t intend to make you fall through into that sweet little den of snakes. Don’t hurt it’s feelings. Go ahead and cross it…I’m sure it will all work out in the end.”
Or, would you rather I shout, “Run like hell away from that bridge! It can kill you!”
April 8th, 2008 at 12:51 pm
Scoot …
Now you’re starting to get the right idea.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Todaysfate:
Duh! Who DOESN’T think that a local nuke war would cause world havoc?
The problem is that you want to drone on and on about things that are automatically common sense…and all the while entertaining yourself with the fable that you are “one of the few” here who knows what’s “really” going on.
April 8th, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Show me where I said that I believe I am, “one of the few who knows what is really going on”…. ???
I would say that I like to guess, speculate, think about, consider, discuss, debate, discern and contemplate what is “really” going on.
I might be mistaken … but I think that what a BLOG is.
April 8th, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Table of Known Nuclear Tests Worldwide: 1945-69 | 1970-96
Year United States Soviet Union United Kingdom France China Total
A U A U A U A U A U
A = atmospheric; U = underground
1945 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
1946 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2
1947 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1948 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3
1949 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
1950 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1951 15 1 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 18
1952 10 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 11
1953 11 0 5 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 18
1954 6 0 10 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 16
1955 17 1 6 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 24
1956 18 0 9 0 6 0 0 0 0 0 33
1957 27 5 16 0 7 0 0 0 0 0 55
1958 62 15 34 0 5 0 0 0 0 0 116
1959 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
1960 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 3
1961 0 9/1* 58 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 71
1962 39 55/2 78 1 0 2** 0 1 0 0 178
1963 4 41/2 0 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 50
1964 0 39/6 0 9 0 2 0 3 1 0 60
1965 0 37/1 0 14 0 1 0 4 1 0 58
1966 0 44/4 0 18 0 0 5/1* 1 3 0 76
1967 0 39/3 0 17 0 0 3 0 2 0 64
1968 0 52/4 0 17 0 0 5 0 1 0 79
1969 0 45/1 0 19 0 0 0 0 1 1 67
Year United States Soviet Union United Kingdom France China Total
A U A U A U A U A U
Total 215 815 219 496 21 24 50 160 23 22 2046#
1030 715 45 210 45
* Number after / beginning in 1961 in the U.S. column represents PNEs. In the French column number after / represents safety tests.
** All UK underground tests were conducted in the U.S.
# Grand
There have been over 2000 nuclear tests conducted from 1945 to 1996, and we are still here. I’m not downplaying the fact that we can easily blow ourselves into extinction, (Extinction: The death and disappearance of a species – and that is exactly what would happen to the Human Race via nuclear war) but these hypothetical scenarios are once again inducing fear that through loose association scare the hell out of us. We associate RW’s predictions to the possibility of a reality, nuclear annihilation, which is distantly or totally unrelated to his fairytale prophesy and presto, you have subjugation through fear. Think critically my friends.
April 8th, 2008 at 4:08 pm
waytenceewatch,
you said: ‘I came from a site where it was all RW lovers talking about how great he was on every post…the the exact opposite here’
Where is this site, can you post a link?
Does anyone else know of sites like these?
April 8th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
The article spoke of a total of 100 Hiroshima bombs detonated within a short period, not spread out over 24 years.
It would be hard to imagine what effect terrorists with small nukes would have. If one was set off in DC, then another in NYC a week later, is Joe Schmo gonna show up for work in downtown Big City USA? What effects would that have on Wall Street? The Government?
April 8th, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Dunno how much this has to do with RW himself…but people have mentioned the power of false prophets/the devil…and i thought http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/New-Delhi2C-India/photo//080408/481/613a0661232d4b5698e6a0d02bdd9af8//s:/ap/20080408/ap_on_he_me/india_two_faced_baby;_ylt=Aq2cYzuDg17QndZ11QG5xNRa24cA
is a good example of what i was explaining from one of my posts about how the devil doesn’t actually have power except to deceive. I’ve read about quite a few odd births in India which I think stems from their lack of regard for their people during early nuclear testing. So when a child like this is born people with misguided faith see is as something its not. So instead of suing nuke companies like some in America might do, they’re worshiping the child.
A while back someone mentioned that if RW did miracles they’d be of the devil but I don’t think RW can do ANY miracles if he’s of the devil, but he’d be pretending…
April 8th, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Hey ya’ll …
Check THIS out …
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2008/04/08/sot.italy.pope.message.america.cnn?iref=24hours
It was just posted. Its the POPES’s “message” to America about his message to america next week.
Tell me what you think from watching this.
April 8th, 2008 at 4:56 pm
for kurt:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread317948/pg43
I linked directly to the last page where they shut it down for preaching pretty much, but u can backtrack from there to read earlier posts
April 8th, 2008 at 4:57 pm
The people who post on this site seem to have a vested interest in Ron one way or another. I was wondering if there is a blog like this, except that they believe (for the most part) Ron is a prophet.
By the way, I think those birth defects in India are the result of the use of depleted uranium ammunition in Iraq/Afghanistan.
April 8th, 2008 at 4:59 pm
It would be devastating Kurt, but what does that have to do with RW’s predictions? RW is taking a possible scenario and weaving into his delusional fantasy. The CIA could be spying on me. The mafia could be after me. During the Cold War there was a Communist hiding under everyone’s bed. It led to persecution of innocent people during the McCarthy era. A possible reality can easily turn into paranoid delusions. RW is hoodwinking families into his delusional, or is outright con clocked in a mixture of factual possibilities and mythology.
April 8th, 2008 at 5:03 pm
nice desk
April 8th, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Todaysfate, that was a scary message. I forgot that there were sick, weak and lonely people in the world. Frightening!
April 8th, 2008 at 5:12 pm
Robert D:
Great post. Thank you for adding that bit of data called “evidence” that some folks here detest with a passion. : )
Now, since everyone is terrified of the penguins on Noah’s Ark and all that yucky evidence against presented against the leaning Tower of Babel, I’m forced to come over here for a while.
I’m lonely. ; )
Listener:
No disrespect, but…
Yes.
And I could be The Divine Arc Angel of Jeff, The God of Biscuits.
Excellent!
Then perhaps you’ll want to read a few passages from each.
Let’s start with Daniel 12:4
. Just click and read.
Now, compare ‘that’ with Revelation 22:10
.
Go ahead. I’ll wait.
Thanks.
They sound like polar opposite commands, don’t they? Well, they are. And for good reason.
The author of Revelation (John in all likelihood) errantly believed that the visions he described were so immediate that he suggests the exact opposite command as that shown in Daniel. When prophets were given visions for future generations, it was very common to have them sealed in stone. Jewish history is replete with this. It was done as to not confuse the present-day believers.
John knows this, and includes this particular verse. This was not an accident.
Revelation 22:11-12
is even worse. Translated from Greek, it’s basically saying, “There’s no point in witnessing to anyone anymore at this point in time.” That’s highly paraphrased, but you get the gist.
It was to happen THAT soon.
And, John was wrong. Dismally wrong. And that is why many of the original folks responsible for the fine cannon we have today (ala the Latin Vulgate) wanted Revelation excluded. Not only was it unintelligible to all but the most stoned Jew, but it was also incredibly off.
Revelation 1:1
(for crying out loud) proclaims this with thunder. The Greek for for “soon” is only used three times in the entire NT, and all three denote immediacy. There are many words for “soon” which are both vague and open-ended, but John chose this one for a reason.
Also, Revelation 1:3
repeats the “near theme”. Then Revelation 1:4
spells out exactly to whom this revelation pertained. Why only seven churches? Why not all the churches in the region, or the churches further toward Rome? Ah…hyperbolic text, you say. Look into the subject. Text of this nature was always preceded and proceeded by literalism in order to ’set up’ the coming metaphorical diatribe. This is very clearly set up in Revelation 1:10
. “In the spirit” sets the rest of the text to follow, as does the examples of “golden lampstands” as a metaphor.
If you deny this, and assume it is ALL figurative and hyperbolic, then the description of Christ’s second coming must also be considered as such, as this comes before 1:10.
This is a specific prophecy addressed to specific people for a specific time. And, thanks largely in part to a few weenies in the LXX, and nut-jobs like Ron Weinland, this ignorance has pervaded our history to the point of no return.
Speaking of ‘no return’… sorry. That was too obvious.
You see, this is where being an EX bible scholar comes in handy.
This statement is utterly false. While there are several examples of prophets being accepted, the strongest example is Jonah.
First, he runs in the opposite direction towards the west coast region. Then God sends a
UFOMagic Black Holevery large fish to swallow him whole. Just to teach him a lesson. Perhaps God included the scuba gear needed to survive at depth, but that’s another topic.Then Jonah comes to his senses, after a very VERY long shower, and goes to Nineveh.
Now, he is most certainly a prophet — and exactly the same ‘kind’ of prophet this loser RW is: An “end of your life, repent or die” type.
And what did the good folks at Nineveh do? They heeded the prophet without question, from the king to the slaves! Fish Boy was so upset that he threw a temper-tantrum and bitched it to God who, for whatever reason, took up horticulture and…
Well, the story just gets silly from there.
Anyway, point being, prophets were not always rejected. Sometimes, but not always.
To summarize: Jonah was a crybaby covered in fish goo, but Weinland is just a moron. He’d be rejected applying at Wendy’s. It is no surprise he’s being rejected applying for the position of “One of Two Prophets in Misunderstood Dead Book.”
Perhaps if he had zits?
Yes, this has never happened until recently. Especially that “war” bit.
No, really.
What verse is that? II Opinions, Chapter 4, Verses X-Y?
See: “never happened; targeted circa AD 90; swing and a miss.”
Yes, yes. That same spirit that led believers into such lovely acts like the Crusades, the Inquisition, the slaughter of my relatives in the Americas, and, perhaps worst of all, Amy Grant.
As for the rest: I suggest you adopt a quote that has served me very well:
A fool believes history began the day he was born.
Now, go have a beer.
And no, I’m not calling you a fool. The quote was simply written that way.
Besides, I’d be in danger of “hell fire”…
Oh. Wait…
April 8th, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Todaysfate,
I couldn’t get past the silly hat long enough to get the gist. And that was after suffering through that “viva viagra” commercial.
April 8th, 2008 at 5:18 pm
Robert Demarco;
Well, Ron choose well a ‘possible’ scenario, as Cheney says, it is not a matter of if, but when.
April 8th, 2008 at 5:39 pm
Jon,
Thanks for bring some intelect back into the fold.
But …. its not my cause to convince you. You will be the first to put the hat back on if God taps you on the shoulder. Heck … most of us don’t have a hat at all.
April 8th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
At the credit of Ironwolf… there is no blog like this one.
April 8th, 2008 at 5:52 pm
http://www.worldchallenge.org/node/2340
Just started listening to this, a preacher talking ‘in one hour everything is going to change’. Nuclear terror, NY…
April 8th, 2008 at 6:04 pm
Kurt:
Do you mean one hour from the time he was preaching? One hour from now? Or in “an” hour’s time?
I’m just curious as I have dinner plans. No sense in getting ready if Ronnie’s God and his loving wrath is on its way. Thanks.
Todaysfate:
The hat in reference was the Pope. I wear a cap from time to time, however. But, since I have all of my hair and refuse to proclaim myself the human puppet of God Almighty, I rarely wear one. Heh.
And if God were to tap me on the shoulder, after a set of grueling questions on my part, he’d have a heck of a follower. My issue has never been with the concept of “God” as so many people see God — a loving deity who is very much like a father figure. My problem is with ‘false’ gods. So far, they have all been painfully false. But, as an agnostic, I hold some hope.
Thanks for the kind words, btw. : )
Jon
April 8th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Jon, THANK YOU!!!!! A great post from a person who is learned in the bible. When I was a kid I use to hide my weed in my bible because it was the only book that no one read in my family. Keep up the great work!
April 8th, 2008 at 6:13 pm
Jon;
Go to dinner, watch the video whenever. It is weird listening to another preacher speak of the very same things as Ron, and with emotion.
April 8th, 2008 at 6:34 pm
Jon,
I enjoyed your post so much that I could have eaten it for dinner!
I must inquire…nay insist you tell me…are you a professor?
April 8th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Kurt,
I wonder what evil church this guy hails from.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:07 pm
The thing about the bible that I always assumed everyone realized that however inspired it is, its written by imperfect people, with limited intelligence, about a perfect being with unlimited knowledge…so when people read scripture you have to keep that in mind….the wording is very indicative of this as they try to simplify and rationalize a God who’s doing such great things around them, but this was a time before we understood so much about the universe matter, molecules, atoms, protons,photons, planets, galaxies etc…so things are written in a way to make god sound like a man for simple minds of that age to get it, and even simple minds can get the basics…1 God,10 commandments, golden rule, but the rest are more intelligent people trying to describe philosophically to other intelligent people the wonders of such a god. I notice there’s this science vs god thing that’s been happening for some decades now, when people almost worship science and stop seeing science for what it is…a useful and brilliant but imperfect set of tools to use for questioning and shaping the world around us. I’m pretty sure this post is off topic tho lol.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:35 pm
Jon, you are really spreading it around, aren’t you? I know that you as a self proclaimed theologian, would know that in apocalyptic literature as is the Revelation, there is no definite chronology.
so then, what could you possibly mean by this? and you made fun of my hermeneutic skills. shame on you!!
April 8th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
I wish people would follow Ron around like they do Brittney Spears…So we can catch him doing something naughty.
April 8th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Where there is Jon …. There is Katie ….
You go Katie !!!
April 8th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Brittney declared herself the “Anti-christ” …. coincidence?
April 8th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
Kurt:
I gave and listened to a bit of this guy.
Nice hair.
The prophecy he is quoting from Isaiah 24
is commonly used to broadcast the end of the world. The problem is too few bother with doing their homework. Same with Revelation. Notice all those scriptures quoted by me in the post a few above this one? Think anyone will read them?
I digress. : )
“World” is one of the Hebrew words for “land”. While it can be translated as “globe”, this is stretching credulity based on the purpose of prophecy.
Obviously, Isaiah is on about something. But these words are punctuated with a rather familiar tone. Read the first 23 chapters. It is likely that he is lumping the various lands surrounding him into one lump sum and calling it “bigger land”, or “world.” Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Moab, etc. It’s a summation of a familiar theme: The sinners will die!!
Such a nice guy.
This is more likely than the (well-loved) end of the ‘actual’ world crap most people want to read into this stuff. Plus, just fyi, he is plainly stating that people would be in disarray and simply scattered about — hardly the end of all time.
Historically, the destruction of an actual city was punctuated with prophetic words such as:
“The stars will fall.”
“The sun will cease to shine.”
“The moon will not give its light.”
And so-on. And, sure enough, we see Ch. 24 closing with these common phrases.
So, not the end of the world. Not a “new” prophecy as Mr. Preacher is claiming. Just plain old Isaiah.
Proof? Glad you asked.
See if this cheery little ditty sounds familiar:
Loving fellow, isn’t he?
Now, this sounds JUST LIKE the bit Wilkerson was blabbering on about. Even worse, it tosses in familiar lingo Jesus used in Matthew 24
.
End of the world?
Nope. The destruction of Babylon.
Says so in the first verse (Isaiah 13:1
).
Not a mythical city of sinners, but an actual city that was conquered by (oops) an equally godless Assyrian army not long after Isaiah croaked. (Yes, you can claim he was a ‘prophet’ based on this prediction, but Babylon was under constant siege all during Isaiah’s lifetime. Hardly a stretch to say ‘Babylon will burn!’)
But…my blank…the “Assyrians??” Not exactly the ethnic and spiritual cleansing Isaiah would have had in mind. Hell, he begged Hezekiah to resist the same nation a few years earlier! And, much to his dismay, Babylon was (again) the largest city in the world by 612 BC, a mere 50-70 years after his death. So, God’s cleansing power must be like the Romulan high-energy plasma ray: Limited by time and distance.
What you need to take away from this (and there are many more examples) is the fact that prophets loved using exaggerated language in their rhetoric. It’s only dangerous when idiots like David Wilkerson takes it out of context and pretends it’s “new and improved” because his hippocampus got over-stimulated by too much coffee and an extra hot shower that morning. (aka “God has put this on my heart…”)
Oh, one more thing: Did you read Mr. Wilkerson’s summary of the sermon? Here’s why it’s all going to change in “one hour” –
This is just utterly stupid. The Bible actually gives instructions in sexual cruelty against children (read Num 31:14-18
as one example…and by the way, “virgins” in that day were rarely older than 12), and abortion has been around since the days of Greece. The Hippocratic Oath actually mentions it because it was so commonplace. The Romans would simply kill the child ‘at’ birth if they didn’t approve of it, as would Spartans, Assyrians, and many other cultures. Greed and corruption? Are you kidding me? What comparative history book is this guy reading?
Oh, that’s right. He doesn’t read comparative history books. And, from the drivel in the first seven minutes, he didn’t bother to study that much in seminary.
In short, this guy thinks history began the day he was born. And yes, I said that earlier, too. It needs to be restated. Over and over again.
2008Grad:
Thanks man. ; ) Nope, not a prof…a former youth minister, theology/apologist nerd, and resident antagonist. Never got my PhD. Stopped at the masters and got a real job. Heh.
Todaysfate:
The Church of Second Hand Parkas.
Jon
April 8th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
getting back to the SECOND WITNESS…. I TOTALLY agree the wife thing is just TOO rediculous!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you think he actually has the ability to say that with a straight face??? I agree that anyone who hears that should just get up and walk out!!! But dosent the congregation KNOW this already??? BANNCAM??? whats your read on why they STILL STAY, and have any of your family spilled the beans yet about who it is???
April 8th, 2008 at 8:33 pm
In this function [of protection] the mother is soon replaced by the stronger father, who retains that position for the rest of childhood. But the child’s attitude to its father is coloured by a peculiar ambivalence. The father himself constitutes a danger for the child, perhaps because of its earlier relation to its mother. Thus it fears him no less than it longs for him and admires him. The indications of this ambivalence in the attitude to the father are deeply imprinted in every religion, as was shown in Totem and Taboo. When the growing individual finds that he is destined to remain a child for ever, that he can never do without protection against strange superior powers, he lends those powers the features belonging to the figure of his father; he creates for himself the gods whom he dreads, whom he seeks to propitiate, and whom he nevertheless entrusts with his own protection. Thus his longing for a father is a motive identical with his need for protection against the consequences of his human weakness. The defence against childish helplessness is what lends its characteristic features to the adult’s reaction to the helplessness which he has to acknowledge a reaction which is precisely the formation of religion. But it is not my intention to enquire any further into the development of the idea of God; what we are concerned with here is the finished body of religious ideas as it is transmitted by civilization to the individual.
This sums it up for me. We cannot tolerate the randomness of life and we must have a father figure that we are required to appease or he will strike us down. RW exploits our helplessness and fears with this paradigm while helping himself to his congregations money. Goodnight all.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
This not only makes more sense, it’s the ONLY thing that makes any sense. Unless you actually believe that when Jesus comes back in 20XX, it’d be best to migrate to the holy land…and Buddha-forbid you happen to be pregnant. Or that it not be winter or “the Sabbath day” when GOD RETURNS. Why? Well, in Reality Land, we have a good reason — the city’s gates were locked on the Sabbath. Escaping an army would prove difficult.
For goodness sakes, he even quotes Isaiah’s reference to Babylon’s physical destruction as part of this ‘prophecy’. But, of course he could ‘never’ be speaking of the destruction of a city. No. Can’t be!
And, as if this wasn’t enough evidence for context, Jesus keeps using that pesky word “you.” The “you” is an antecedent to the nearest pronoun (rule of Simple Greek).
That pronoun? “The disciples.”
That’s right — he keeps telling the men who were present, right there in that spot that they will see these things come to pass. This is directly supported by Mark 9:1
.
But, since that did not happen the way we want to understand it — as some granduous end of all time saga, we post-facto created the mysterious, Katie-supported, ambiguous time-framed “apocalyptic language.”
In other words, we decided to alter what words MEAN.
Dear Katie, there’s literally no way to engage you with a debate on this subject other than to say, “No Katie, you are mistaken” when you try to reply back.
It’s like telling a child 2 + 2 = 4. They can come back and say, “Nu-UHHH!” all day long.
The difference is the fact that I present evidence and logical thought.
Try it.
April 8th, 2008 at 8:55 pm
Katie,
Lost the first half of my reply to you. I urged you to read Matthew 24
. The re-read it in the context of the destruction of the physical city of Jerusalem.
Stating that Revelation and “apocalyptic language” has no chronology just shows an ignorance of the subject matter. I doubt you bothered to read the verses posted above these entries, nor considered the facts presented. I suggest you do.
Oh, and btw: I am not a “self-proclaimed” anything. I have a masters in the subject and I was a former youth minister and apologist. It’s just an uncomfortable fact for you to deal with, not a proclamation.
Look, I wrote my thesis on this very subject — ironically while was every bit the Christian lad. It was a touchy subject because it called into question some of our most deeply-held beliefs.
But, at least my profs bothered to research the material and, by their own admission, had no answer for the arguments presented other than “Well, that just can’t be. He never came back, so this must be apocalyptic literature — you know, the kind where words have no relative meaning!”
Nice.
Jon
April 8th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
apocolyptic literature isn’t just in the bible, jon. and the rules that apply to reading this genre of lit weren’t made up my bible scholars either. the revelation wasn’t written in chronological order in the same way that other works of apocalyptic literature were not. these rules were not made up “post-facto” as you say. you made a pretty bold comment that we must assume Christ’s return as figurative, and i am saying that we shouldn’t because that’s not what the text is saying when read with the proper rules of apocalyptic literature.
oh how i missed you!!
April 8th, 2008 at 9:18 pm
jon, Jesus is addressing several different events in matt 24, not just the temple destruction. 1)temple destruction 2) end times 3) 2nd coming.
still, this doesn’t answer my rebuttal about the rev comment. i didn’t ignore your matt 24 reference, i just know that all of matt 24 isn’t about the temple destruction. AND i know that just as with any genre of literature there are rules that must be followed in order to get the author’s meaning. rev cannot be read first this happens, then this, then this. that’s how whack jobs like R Dubya get thier understanding (possibly Jon Hagee, Tim Lahaye/Jenkins are misinterpreting, too, but the jury is still out for me on that one).
April 8th, 2008 at 9:28 pm
it’s not uncomfortable for me to deal with you being an ex youth minister, jon. you are painting a pretty clear picture of yourself on these blogs — that you decided to do away with anything that cannot be proven. my question is what do you do with the things that you live with on a day to day basis that cannot fit into the scientific formula such as love? Does love not exist or have any value because you cannot nail it down and explain it with science?
April 8th, 2008 at 10:16 pm
Katie,
Jon said it best when he replied to my post earlier with these words….
Have faith Katie. The purpose of the end times is so that everyone KNOWS God is real in the end. …. E V E R Y O N E.
Not saying Ron W knows when those end times are … but it could be.
April 8th, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Katie;
Dear, dear Katie…
It’s way late here, so I cannot respond to the other issues until tomorrow. But please, follow the bouncing ball of logical thought:
1. Jesus uses the antecedent throughout the narrative.
2. I have shown you specific passages in scripture that “seem” to be catastrophic but were actually wars on cities. There are passages that describe these wars AFTER they happened using the exact same language.
3. Please look in your Bible for the passage “coming of the son of man.” The phrase is also used in (gasp) correlation to the destruction of literal cities.
I cannot share an entire year of collegiate study of Greek, Hebrew, and books you would never want to read (they are pro-Christian, but very tedious.) What I can tell you is that your take on this passage makes ‘no’ sense hermeneutically, and that the “multiple layers” theory of prophecy has no support from the text itself.
It is wholly the construction of man to explain why things did ‘not’ happen the way the Bible said.
At least consider the possibility, otherwise you will never grow beyond your bounds. And, try to recall that I came from that other side. I gave both sides their fair shot. At least consider the fact that, by looking at volumes of Jewish history and literature, Jesus may have been speaking hyperbolically, if not for any other reason than he was literally quoting a KNOWN hyperbolic text.
And finally, you simply refuse to acknowledge the following: Either I am correct, and the apostles ALL believed it as well — Paul, Peter, John — since ALL of them kept saying, “Soon!”, a very specific word in Greek…or YOU are correct and the Bible is full of errant apostles who just didn’t get what Jesus was saying at all, taught total error, and therefore the epistles are not god-inspired.
Take your pick.
The Apostles had no doubt as to the “soon” of Christ’s return. Why do you suppose that is? Do you have a legitimate answer? We know they were not speaking figuratively from the text itself and historical records.
Could it be statement like this, perhaps? –
Oh, the BS spins I’ve seen on that one. But they just can’t spin it enough to make it honest.
Jon
P.S. Don’t try the “kingdom means church” bit or “kingdom means holy spirit.” The Greek word is “perusea”, which means, “to come with judgment.” It is the word we would use to say, “Wait until your father COMES home, young man!”
It was obvious to the apostles what he meant. Not one of them assumed this event was anything but immediate, and within their lifetime. Not one. And they were supposed to be “inspired by God.”
Now, do your homework! ; )
I am not saying I am definitely correct. But I will say that there is NO evidence of any scripture having a dual timetable or references to multiple events within the constraints of the narrative.
April 9th, 2008 at 7:29 am
Jon said:
“Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”
Ron claims there is no “death” until the final judgement…only a limbo. No heaven, no hell…only the grave…until the return, then judgement and then…eternal life on earth under God’s rule…or then death (i.e. non-existance)
Just “spinning”, I guess. Amazing!
April 9th, 2008 at 7:47 am
These prophets/witnesses really are everywhere! Have you seen this one?
“Houston Prophet says NO Presidential elections in 2008!!!!!”
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TPOsTQb9m1s
April 9th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Why interview a “prophet” on the top of a parking garage? What’s with that!?
btw, I have to reload now and again because I can’t make out the “encription” words needed to post. Anyone else have this prob?
April 9th, 2008 at 7:57 am
He claims he’s Daniel and he’s “opening the book”. On top of a parking garage! This is a riot!!!
April 9th, 2008 at 7:58 am
Pluggedin,
If you can’t make out the captcha security words, just click the little “swirly arrows” button down there, and you’ll get a new pair of words without having to refresh the entire page.
April 9th, 2008 at 8:21 am
thanks, IW!
April 9th, 2008 at 8:24 am
The antichrist is in Texas! Hook ‘em ‘yall!
April 9th, 2008 at 8:48 am
From the Times Online:
Video Link
April 9th, 2008 at 9:22 am
Maybe he was trying to knock some sense into himself.
I’m sorry, but something about that story just makes me laugh. It’s both tragic and strangely amusing.
Maybe we ought to send RW a cord of wood.
Kidding, of course.
April 9th, 2008 at 10:47 am
Oh, Ironwolf…that is freakin’ priceless.
However, in fairness to this goon, May is still a month away. (kid)
Here’s a few more gems from that TImes Online story:
Was this before or after God collapsed his gray matter?
Good call.
Nothing like the blind leading the blind, stupid, and psychotic.
Oh, now they’re just making shit UP!
Aren’t they?
No??
Hmm.
What’s funny is that they split off (”splitters!!”) from the False Orthodox Church of Latter Day Gimbits who believed processed food and bar codes were gives of the (now obese) Holy Spirit of Albertsons.
I suppose drinking water was just too much a sacrifice this close to Armageddon.
Jon
April 9th, 2008 at 11:02 am
Pluggedin said:
Actually, this is a very common way to
fabricate a lie to make yourself feel better about failed prophecyinterpret Jesus’ words.Of course, you still have to contend with that nutty thing we call “language”, the obvious contextual references (or just apply Katie’s “Multiple Prophecies in One Passage Theory of Utter and Total Confusion), the fact that every NT writer believed the day was “near”, “at hand”, etc., and the fact that Paul claimed the day of Christ was “at hand” — meaning “in this time”, and describes the events that will unfold in the lifetime of his readers in II Thessalonians 2:2
.
That, and Revelation 22:10
has still yet to be addressed. Feel free to give it a shot. Just do your homework first and reference Daniel 12:4
as well.
But, other than that bit of trivial nonsense the “dead but undead” theory holds solid weight man.
Right-o.
April 9th, 2008 at 11:04 am
Good book review……..
http://shopping.yahoo.com/p:2008-god%27s%20Final%20Witness:3005007339:isbn=0975324071:page=user-reviews;_ylt=AkantoUny_DU7q_VPBnv1ssCyNsA;_ylu=X3oDMTBybGxvcXVoBF9zAzE0NDAzNTg2BHNlYwN1c2VycmV2aWV3cw–
April 9th, 2008 at 11:19 am
Dear Jon, EX bible scholar,
with Revelation 22:10
. It was an excellent exercise. I am glad we have you among us here on this ‘blog.
Thank you for inviting me to compare and contrast Daniel 12:4
It seems that the Lord told Daniel that he had finished saying everything he had to say and he should seal his words in stone. The Lord reassured Daniel that what he prophesied would not come to pass yet. He also told Daniel that knowledge would increase at the time of the end.
Then it looks like the Lord told John not to seal the words of Revelation for the time is NOW. And He told John that there was no point in witnessing to anyone anymore, to just let the people be what they are and don’t try to change them.
John wrote to the ANGELS of the 7 churches. Do you know what that means, Jon? Why not the head PERSON?
I believe that the Revelation was given by God, through Christ, to an angel, and then to John. My impression is that John was speaking to two audiences. One audience being the actual physical seven churches in Asia. The second audience being you and me, right now. “Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keeps those things which are written in it; for the time is near.” I think it was written literally and metaphorically with application to the 70AD audience and to you and me right now.
when Jesus said “Truly I say to you, there are so
I don’t know why it was written to only those seven churches, except that the number 7 seems to be representative of completeness. I don’t think the writing is hyperbolic (meaning extravagantly exaggerated). I think it is a puzzle, and one day the pieces will fit together. At least that’s my hope. For some reason, the Latin Vulgate decided to include evelation. Even though it seemed “incredibly off” to them, they must have wondered if at some future time the puzzle might come together. I don’t get why it wasn’t sealed, though. I guess that’s part of the puzzle.
By the way, you misunderstood me when I said prophets have always been rejected. What I meant was that they have been rejected always. And thanks for the reminder about Jonah.
Hermeneutics: the study of the methodological principles of interpretation (as of the Bible)
Regarding Mark 9:1-2