Ron Weinland: Discussion Part 16
Just got an SMS on my iPhone from Ronny: “4 DAYS B4 I CAN HAZ L337 SUPERPOWERZ, DEMUN D00DZ! FEER DA WITNESSEZ!!1!”
lol kthxbye.
Can you say, fair use? I knew you could!Part 1 Basic info and links.
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5 FAQ
Part 6
Part 7
Part 8
Part 9
Part 10
Part 11
Part 12
Part 13
Part 14
Part 15
April 12th, 2008 at 11:12 pm
Myspace doesn’t kill people … people do. Or something like that right?
April 13th, 2008 at 12:00 am
I stumbled upon this argument, a few days ago, and noticed that many of you were raised in the WCG. I was also raised under Armstrong, and although I agree that he made his share of mistakes, I learned a lot about the Bible through his eyes.
My mom and dad attended his church, but they never forced it upon me or my Sib’s. So we chose to stay home, and run wild in those days. The only time I ever visited a preachers house was on Halloween, and that was only to burn a sack of cow shit on his porch. If you’ve never tried this, I’ll give you a word of caution - understand that you may burn the house down. I’m not kidding! This thing will go off like a 40 pound Molotov cocktail. Ka-bloom! It must have something to do with inert gasses or something of that nature. Who the hell knows? Probably Jon.
I belong to no church, and nor have I ever. I do not claim to be perfect, saved, or in any way better than anyone else on the face of this earth. That’s not my call. I can suck the bottom out of a can of beer, and I don’t care who knows it.
My mom and dad never forced their ways upon us, and they gave us the free choice to go to any church of our choosing, or none at all, it was our choice. On the other hand, we did talk about what was in the Bible - and it was usally interesting.
When I was about 12, me and the Sib’s decided to go to Sunday school with the other kids in our neighborhood. We only went because we already knew the people who attended this church. The first thing I noticed was that the Sunday School teacher knew very little about the Bible. Most questions were answered with a statement like; “oh, that stuff doesn’t matter.” The main theme was to take Jesus into your heart, as your personal savior, and forget the rest. I once asked her “who was the Antichrist”, and she told us she thought it would be Nero or Adolf Hitler. I told her they were already dead, but she claimed they may raise from the dead. Then I asked how anyone could mistake one of them for Jesus? She didn’t like the subject, so it was time to move on. This may be fine with most people, but it’s not for me.
Once I had graduated high school I found a job, and like Ben Franklin - about as close as I came to the church was paying the tithe. Then my dad died, just a few months before Herb checked out. This was when I really dug into what Herb had wrote, and although I didn’t agree with it all, I came to the conclusion that I couldn’t buck the Sabbath - or the 7 other Holy Days.
A few years later, I decided it was time that I tied up the loose ends. So I went to the plant manager and told him I could no longer work on Saturday, or the seven other Holy Days. He told me he would write a note to my preacher and take full responsibility for my working on these days. I told him that I had no preacher, but that I followed the WCG. He began to laugh and told me that was no problem, he would still write me a note. Well, that put me in a tough situation, so I ask him if I supposed to give this note to God. This made big bastard mad; and he began to tell me how I lied on my application, when I said I would work on any day of the week. Even though the application was nine years old.
Then he told me if I followed this course of action, I would be terminated once I reached my seventh occasion. Within one year I had missed my sixth Sabbath and I came to work on the following Sunday. I now stood on six points and I receive my 2nd and final warning. In Weinland terms, I had run out of time. There was no doubt that I would get my seventh point on the very next Sabbath.
The very next day, on Monday, our big man was expecting a visit from a wheel up north. I, like many others in the plant, cleaned all night just to make him look good for this wheel. Well, as fate would have it, this wheel came down that Monday and fired the big ugly bastard. My case was then up in the air for about two months, and they finally decided to keep me on. This reprieve lasted through the fall of the WCG, and up until the summer of 2001.
It seems that many Sunday keepers began to use me as their scapegoat - to get Sunday off - so we were all dragged back to the front office and given an ultimatum. I was the last one they brought in, and all the Sunday folk had agreed that the Sunday Sabbath wasn’t worth the risk of losing their job. It was now my turn to conform to the collective, and believe me it was actually tempting for me to say “what’s the use.”
You folks aren’t the only ones who felt ripped off by the WCG. I may not have entered her halls, but my family and I paid tithes until about 1995. My brother and sister-in-law joined in about 91, and they continued to go with my mom until old Joe made the big change. There ain’t no splinter gonna take me for another ride. Including Weinland! The truth is they’re no better, or worse, than the other preachers of this world; and they all deserve that 40 pound sack of cow shit on their doorstep.
I refused, once again, to work on the Sabbath and I was given the same deal. Seven times and you’re out. Truth is, I really didn’t give a damn this time. I was getting tired of hearing the sneers behind my back. By the end of the summer the towers fell, and I began to search the Bible with renewed interest; but this time I had a powerful tool on my side. A computer version of the Bible. Well, it didn’t take long before I was looking the false prophet right in the eye.
The false prophet rode his White Horse, in the middle of the first century. By 97 AD, Jesus was already warning the church of Ephesus to return to her first love. He had told Peter, who was in charge of the church, to follow him; but Christ also warned him he would follow another. Then came Thomas Jefferson, almost 200 years ago; but since the time of Jesus there’s been nobody that hit the false prophet in the mouth like Edgar Allan Poe - on Christmas Eve 1844.
If you believe that Christ is the Lamb of God, then who fulfilled the Scapegoat? If Ron can count past 665, he may figure it out; but no, all he wants to do is bring up something that was written over 200 years ago. If Weinland’s an end time witness, why does he keep saying that Paul wrote the Book of Hebrews? Why has God not corrected him on this point? Why is he not dressed in sackcloth, instead of that goofy looking suit? I’ll lay odds that he’s wearing a black speedo under all that money, thinking it has something to do with the curious girdle.
Why can none of these so called prophets tell us the identity of the sitting king of Israel? It’s sure not David! And finally: How many churchs claim they hold the key of David? And there’s not a damn one of them can tell us how to walk through an open door. (see Zech. 11
)
If I was betting on a place to get hit it would be L.A., not that I’m not trying to scare anyone, because I don’t claim to be a prophet. But if it were to get hit by an earthquake, or something man made, I’m sure Ron would take a bow. Then we may hear something like; “you tore me down, and in three days Christ restored the Temple.” I would get out of L.A.
April 13th, 2008 at 5:12 am
The thing with this not working on Saturdays is that some people will have to work no matter what. Hospitals, utilities, police, EMS.
If Ron has a heart attack on a Saturday or if his house were on fire cause someone burned a sack of cow shit on his porch, is he gonna say to it can wait until Sunday? Does he eat out Saturday’s?
The whole problem I have with religion is that it generally starts of with some truth, then power hungry people twist and turn the truth to gain control. When common sense goes out the door, you should be fast on its heels.
April 13th, 2008 at 5:48 am
The link at the bottom of ‘part 15′ does not take you to ‘part 16′, it is linked to itself.
April 13th, 2008 at 7:27 am
Kurt,
Fixed. Thanks!
April 13th, 2008 at 7:38 am
Hi Doger,
Welcome, and thanks for sharing your story. I have no experience with WWCG. I’m just an ex-minister who urges freethinking, so I cannot relate to the cultish experience. However, I did grow up in the Church of Christ. The CoC is not a cult, but it has been labeled as such by various denominations, and they most certainly have a twisted view of theology. Nice folks, though.
If you look at prophetic scripture in the light of the day it was written, it makes a lot more sense. I’ve been trying to encourage others here to do so, but few wish to leave the nest. To Jews living in the first century for example, Revelation made sense. They were familiar with a hyperbolic style of writing which we have little remaining references.
My stance has been, both as a minister and now agnostic, is that all of these passages were meant for the day, especially Revelation, which is clearly a book meant for those reading it (see Rev. 22:10
; also Rev. 1:1-6
.)
Perhaps that will help you. Perhaps not.
I’m sure Ironwolf would not appreciate that. ; )
And ‘where’ pray-tell was the temple in reference? Jerusalem. Read it in that light, and consider what was literally happening in the days when the gospels were written. Then take a look at Nero (or just Google it.)
Makes a lot more sense. And, more than that, it would have saved a hell of a lot of bloodshed over the years. Millions have died, literally, from interpreting Revelation as something for them to understand.
April 13th, 2008 at 7:50 am
Kurt said:
Great points. There are some that are so true to their dogma that they would refuse life-saving endeavors. Technically, anyone who took service from someone working on the Sabbath was guilty of a number of fringe add-on Levitical laws.
I DO have a legitimate question for all the WCG folks: Exactly why do you (or did you) insist on keeping this one part of the Mosaic law and not that whole bit about making treaties with neighboring pagans (Exodus 34:10
) and putting up your firstborn children and/or livestock (Exodus 34:19
)?
It’s right there in the Ten Commandments, Revised and Updated Post Breakage of Version 1 (Exodus 34
).
And, what of the punishment? The ‘people’ were commanded to put Sabbath-breakers to death. Why keep the law and not the punishment for the law?
Thoughts?
April 13th, 2008 at 7:55 am
RW’s “sermon” yesterday was a perfect example of Mind-control. I do not know how to provide a link to material, so forgive me IW if this is a bit lengthy. If you delete due to size I’ll understand. Listen to RW’s sermon and compare with the methods of Mind-control, it’s chilling.
Lifton thought reform model
Main article: Thought Reform (book)
In his 1961 book Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of “Brainwashing” in China, psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, M.D., describes eight coercive methods which, he says, are able to change the minds of individuals without their knowledge and were used with this purpose on prisoners of war in Korea and China. These include:[1]
• Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.
• Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.
• Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
• Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members’ “sins,” “attitudes,” and “faults” are discussed and exploited by the leaders.
• Sacred Science. The group’s doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
• Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members’ thought processes to conform to the group’s way of thinking.
• Doctrine over person. Member’s personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
• Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group’s ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also.
[edit] Margaret Singer’s conditions for mind control
Psychologist Margaret Singer describes in her book Cults in our Midst six conditions which she says would create an atmosphere in which thought reform is possible. Singer states that these conditions involve no need for physical coercion or violence.[4]
• Keep the person unaware of what is going on and how he is being changed a step at a time.
o Potential new members are led, step by step, through a behavioral-change program without being aware of the final agenda or full content of the group. The goal may be to make them deployable agents for the leadership, to get them to buy more courses, or get them to make a deeper commitment, depending on the leader’s aim and desires.
• Control the person’s social and/or physical environment; especially control the person’s time.
o Through various methods, newer members are kept busy and led to think about the group and its content during as much of their waking time as possible.
• Systematically create a sense of powerlessness in the person.
o This is accomplished by getting members away from their normal social support group for a period of time and into an environment where the majority of people are already group members.
o The members serve as models of the attitudes and behaviors of the group and speak an in-group language.
o Strip members of their main occupation (quit jobs, drop out of school) or source of income or have them turn over their income (or the majority of) to the group.
o Once stripped of your usual support network, your confidence in your own perception erodes.
o As your sense of powerlessness increases, your good judgment and understanding of the world are diminished. (ordinary view of reality is destabilized)
o As group attacks your previous worldview, it causes you distress and inner confusion; yet you are not allowed to speak about this confusion or object to it — leadership suppresses questions and counters resistance.
o This process is sped up if you are kept tired — the cult will keep you constantly busy.
• Manipulate a system of rewards, punishments and experiences in such a way as to inhibit behavior that reflects the person’s former social identity.
o Manipulation of experiences can be accomplished through various methods of trance induction, including leaders using such techniques as paced speaking patterns, guided imagery, chanting, long prayer sessions or lectures, and lengthy meditation sessions.
o Your old beliefs and patterns of behavior are defined as irrelevant or evil. Leadership wants these old patterns eliminated, so the member must suppress them.
o Members get positive feedback for conforming to the group’s beliefs and behaviors and negative feedback for old beliefs and behavior.
• Manipulate a system of rewards, punishments, and experiences in order to promote learning the group’s ideology or belief system and group-approved behaviors.
o Good behavior, demonstrating an understanding and acceptance of the group’s beliefs, and compliance are rewarded while questioning, expressing doubts or criticizing are met with disapproval, redress and possible rejection. If one expresses a question, he or she is made to feel that there is something inherently wrong with them to be questioning.
o The only feedback members get is from the group, they become totally dependent upon the rewards given by those who control the environment.
o Members must learn varying amounts of new information about the beliefs of the group and the behaviors expected by the group.
o The more complicated and filled with contradictions the new system is and the more difficult it is to learn, the more effective the conversion process will be.
o Esteem and affection from peers is very important to new recruits. Approval comes from having the new member’s behaviors and thought patterns conform to the models (members). Members’ relationship with peers is threatened whenever they fail to learn or display new behaviors. Over time, the easy solution to the insecurity generated by the difficulties of learning the new system is to inhibit any display of doubts — new recruits simply acquiesce, affirm and act as if they do understand and accept the new ideology.
• Put forth a closed system of logic and an authoritarian structure that permits no feedback and refuses to be modified except by leadership approval or executive order.
o The group has a top-down, pyramid structure. The leaders must have verbal ways of never losing.
o Members are not allowed to question, criticize or complain — if they do, the leaders allege that the member is defective — not the organization or the beliefs.
o The individual is always wrong — the system, its leaders and its belief are always right.
o Conversion or remolding of the individual member happens in a closed system. As members learn to modify their behavior in order to be accepted in this closed system, they change — begin to speak the language — which serves to further isolate them from their prior beliefs and behaviors.
Steven Hassan’s BITE model
In his book Releasing the Bonds: Empowering People to Think for Themselves, mental health counselor and exit counselor Steven Hassan describes his mind-control model, “BITE”. “BITE” stands for “Behavior, Information, Thoughts, and Emotions.” The model has a basis on the works of Singer and Lifton, and on the cognitive dissonance theory of Leon Festinger.[8]
In the book, Hassan describes the components of the BITE model:[8]
• Behavior Control
o Regulation of individual’s physical reality
o Major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals
o Need to ask permission for major decisions
o Need to report thoughts, feelings, and activities to superiors
o Rewards and punishments (behavior modification techniques positive and negative)
o Individualism discouraged; “group think” prevails
o Rigid rules and regulations
o Need for obedience and dependency
• Information Control
o Use of deception
o Access to non cult sources of information minimized or discouraged
o Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines
o Spying on other members is encouraged
o Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda
o Unethical use of confession
• Thought Control
o Need to internalize the group’s doctrine as “Truth”
o Use of “loaded” language (for example, “thought terminating clichés”). Words are the tools we use to think with. These “special” words constrict rather than expand understanding, and can even stop thoughts altogether. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous “buzz words.”
o Only “good” and “proper” thoughts are encouraged.
o Use of hypnotic techniques to induce altered mental states
o Manipulation of memories and implantation of false memories
o Use of thought stopping techniques, which shut down “reality testing” by stopping “negative” thoughts and allowing only “good” thoughts
o Rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate.
o No alternative belief systems viewed as legitimate, good, or useful
• Emotional Control
o Manipulate and narrow the range of a person’s feelings
o Make the person feel that if there are ever any problems, it is always their fault, never the leader’s or the group’s
o Excessive use of guilt
o Excessive use of fear
o Extremes of emotional highs and lows
o Ritual and often public confession of “sins”
o Phobia indoctrination: inculcating irrational fears about ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group
This epitomizes RW and how he controls his follwers.
April 13th, 2008 at 7:55 am
Priceless.
And, obviously Ronnie does not “have” an iPhone, eh? : )
April 13th, 2008 at 7:59 am
Sounds like what some psychologists refer to as “St. John’s Wort”.
(”That’s a joke, son…” ; )
April 13th, 2008 at 8:27 am
good post, Robert. And the rest of us cannot imagine the tremendous difficulty in coming out from under this brainwashing/mind control. Thanks for exposing it for us. man, the lengths some people will go to for power!! makes me mad.
Jon, about the commandments, I can tell you whe my church taught. We were only to follow the commands that were reiterated and not contradicted (like the Sabbath was by Paul — “let no man judge you regarding sabbaths, new moons” etc..) in the New Testament. So, if you look at it that way, we were to follow 9 commandments, not 10 and certainly not 600 and something. : ) BUT, then we were to add back everything from the sermon on the Mount (adultery=lust, hate=murder)… SO, and maybe one day I’ll do this, we are probably back up to about 600 rules to follow. Get a bit muddled in the mix, doesn’t it?
PS, for those of you who care, I called in sick for sunday school this morning. I needed more time… Perhaps a bit of fear of a lightning bolt, too?
April 13th, 2008 at 8:49 am
Katie,
Does it strike you as odd that God altered his own law?
Jon
April 13th, 2008 at 9:43 am
April 17th is not about things actually happening it is about getting the critics off his back while still maintaining enough control over his congregation and milk them 45-90 days appropriate. Because that is the amount of time he thinks he still has available to him to sound convincing enough with his ‘fiery speech.’
Lifton thought reform model?
Damn…it’s like he just copied and pasted everything.
April 13th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Firestorm,
I did copy and paste everything: SO WHAT? I think the Mind-control methods are of value for those loved ones who have been cut off from family members solely on the basis that we do not accept RW’s maniacal teachings. The post is completely germane to the topic we are discussing.
April 13th, 2008 at 10:35 am
Love the iPhone reference….sure Ronny’s got an iPhone he can certainly afford it!
WHOOHA somebody took my advice and read Lifton! Yes!
Going back to the other page for just a moment: Jon: d00d: Stimulants are my thing. Not depressants. Definitely no booze here, but I.V. caffeine is always on tap here in the WW compound.
But to answer your question on this page:
“I DO have a legitimate question for all the WCG folks: Exactly why do you (or did you) insist on keeping this one part of the Mosaic law and not that whole bit about making treaties with neighboring pagans (Exodus 34:10
) and putting up your firstborn children and/or livestock (Exodus 34:19
)?”
It is called “picking and choosing” friends and it is what Herbie did best. Hell, if you read through the WCG’s current foray into the information wilderness, “The Surprising God Blog”, it looks like the current administration under Junior is doing exactly the same thing……with protestantism.
Not that I endorse any of the views promulgated on said blog at all: I just sit back and laugh my ass off as the ex-Levitical priesthood fall all over themselves, trying to play four hundred years of catch-up with their protestant cousins…………
April 13th, 2008 at 10:47 am
I see WW.
So, the answer is, “Cherry-Picking, Theology-style.”
Absurd, but predictable.
On that note, I was actually wanting to see the 10 Commandments put in legal buildings — just ALL of them, including the first-born bits, the “mother’s milk” bit, farming tips, and so-on.
Shock and awe would ensue.
Or, people would just read right past it and assume their pastor knew what he was talking about. Who knows.
April 13th, 2008 at 10:54 am
Is Ronald aware of the amount of criticism he will receive on the 17th and after the 17th when nothing happens? The little criticism he gets now will be nothing compared to that. So how will he…defend himself from the criticism? And valid ones at that because he would be defending…a nothing. Just some apocalyptic musings of his, something he made up in his (presumably sane) mind. It’s not his job to deeply convince his congregation such as to plead and reason with them…his job is to ‘prophesy’….because the Bible tells it so.
April 13th, 2008 at 10:58 am
During the Whale interview, it was mentioned that Ronnie was the only one who would be able to tell that the first trumpet had been sounded.
Compounded with the “wait 45 to 90 days and see” that he has been promoting, both publicly and in the sermons, it seems likely (inevitable almost) that 17th April will be spiritualized away just as easily as the rest of it has been. (i.e., the thunders, the seventh seal, etc.)
April 13th, 2008 at 11:01 am
Robert Demarco: “I did copy and paste everything: SO WHAT?”
Damn…it’s like ‘he’ just copied and pasted everything.
The ‘he’ means Ronald and not you.
Sorry for the confusion there.
April 13th, 2008 at 11:03 am
unfortunately, jon, probably the latter…
April 13th, 2008 at 11:21 am
That’s because he has Ultra-Super Trumpet Sensory Power.
Ranks right up there with spidey senses, but slightly behind the ability to see through everything but lead.
April 13th, 2008 at 11:25 am
And just think…
God sent two bears to maul a bunch of kids who called Elisha “baldy”.
So far, not a grizzly in sight.
Oh, wait… Nope.
Just a cat.
April 13th, 2008 at 11:36 am
WeinlandWatch:”During the Whale interview, it was mentioned that Ronnie was the only one who would be able to tell that the first trumpet had been sounded.”
Why does he limit himself with the trumpet is sound-ing, has sound-ed approach?…that’s being too modest here isn’t it? Come now Ron! Where is your BOLDNESS???
Why not start cherry picking where the Angel brings, lights, carries, faces, turns,approaches….lots of wriggle room to use here….but oh well the classic scheme is always the best (or mentor knows best)…cant keep this up forever now…or can he?
Any bets?
April 17 - my favorite choice
April end of
May
June
July
By end of 2008… - not recommended
April 13th, 2008 at 11:42 am
But …
What if you are wrong Jon …
What will you say or do?
April 13th, 2008 at 11:50 am
O.k guys what special powers d,ya reckon old Ronnie will receive on April 17th?…
1.Balls of fire spewing from his mouth?or
2.Ability to stop Hamas bullets with his teeth?or
3.Plagues of locusts from his sphincter?or
4.Ability to shave his face without cutting it?
Hope Ronnies got a sense of humour..:)….O.k special powers…How is he going to prove this to his congregation?…Are they going to be SPIRITUAL special powers maybe?
April 13th, 2008 at 11:51 am
My name on this post should hotlink to an article on my own blog that I just posted. It discusses Weinland’s “Second Thunder” which is earthquakes. I wasn’t particularly aware of increased earthquake activity. So I went to the US Geological Survey, downloaded global earthquake data from their site, put it in a spreadsheet and graphed it.
One the linked blog post, I show the earthquake activity graph and link to a higher-resolution version of it also. It clearly shows that earthquake activity has not increased since 2006 through the opening of the 7th seal on March 18th as prophesied by False Prophet Ron Weinland.
Is the 2nd thunder roaring loudly in your ears?
April 13th, 2008 at 11:57 am
Oh by the way Ronnie did chop the announcements out of “The First Passover” sermon. Just as I predicted. Crap. Does that mean I’m the second witness? Sorry Weinland, I already made other plans……….
April 13th, 2008 at 12:00 pm
Todaysfate, here is an article for you:
http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2008/04/04/p24553
Paul, I think Ronny does have a sense of humor- the maniacal type. I’m glad I’m not in your shoes.
April 13th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
If I am not mistaken … Ron W says that between April 17th and 45 to 90 days after that … somehting is going to happen to plant life? Affecting our food supplies and what not?
And also … to watch the Pope the week of april 17 because he is going to say something “shocking” that reveils him to be EVIL?
Then … the second trumpet will be the nuclear war thing. Sometime after the first 45 to 90 days.
Then 100+ days after that … Europe is going to invade the United States.
You guys should have some patience … Ron W is going to be proven a fake really soon.
But until them … you cannot prove that these things will NOT happen with 100% certainty.
Here is why …
1. Plant life dying … fields of fire etc … I went to the US Geological survey and pulled up some information on the number of earthquakes at Yellowstone over the past year. Last april there was arrounf 45 quakes…. and this number stayed about the same all year … between 45 and 70… in December of 2007 the number jumps to 280+. Then in Jan, Feb and March, it stays at about 190+. Yes … on year of data is not much to go with … but the jump is something of note.
2. Nuclear Bombs - This is a real threat. Period. The government downplays this threat in order to keep people from panicing, quitting tyheir jobs, stop shopping at the mall … etc. But if you pay attention to the smaller news, things they say, comments they make… and also do a little research in some of these “conspiracy” theories … you will see the truth. The existance of the stealth bomber was a “conspiracy” at one point. Its not a streatch to believe that whoever did 911(whether you believe it was Osama, The Jews, or the illuminatii) isn’t trying like hell to do it again. And worse.
3. The POPE … just about every “respectable” person of note in the world has put their foot in their mouth lately … why him him too? What if HE comes out and declares we are in tribulation? What if he tells the US that it is going down in a years time? That would be pretty un-pope like.
Yes … none of this makes Ron W the true prophet of the end times technically … but I really aint going to be concerned with the semantics of the whole thing if any of this shit starts happening. Or even anything remotely close.
You?
April 13th, 2008 at 12:02 pm
Great post Ekimks. It is linked on the WW blog.
April 13th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Ekimks;
Here is a place to monitor all kinds of ‘thunders’.
http://standeyo.com/Earth_Changes/Threat.Watch.html
April 13th, 2008 at 12:11 pm
I just thought to add some flavour to this discussion. As an ex Worldwider from Flanders(Belgium) I know how hard it is to convince people of the very dangerous pressure all those “ministers” like Weinland, put on their church members, past and present. There’s a complete absence of love and REVELATION in those “cows of Bashan”.(Amos 4:1
), But it seems you can only see this when you have been there. One can ask why God allows false prophets to come and manipulate His servants wherever they are, but read the Sriptures with a hearing ear and you’ll find we are warned wolves are among us. It took me 5 years to come to this conclusion and in no way I would hold God accountable for the misery I went through, nor do I see the many years I spend in Worldwide as wasted time.As a matter of fact: the opposite is true. More than ever before I have come to realise how all people who sincerely seek their Creator have only ONe to go to, and that is the Son of Men. And it doens’t matter if one calls Him The Lord Jesus, Yeshua or Yahushua. The fact is we can have a personal relationship with Him, and that’s something Weinland doesn’t want people to do with his Christ. Seriously, even if he would pour down fire and brimstone on this world very soon, in no way I would follow him. In no way I would ever want to be part of his Utopian- One world- Stueben crystal-Armstronglike Government,whatever happens around April 17. I don’t mind if people are trying to set dates when it comes to the Return of Jesus Christ, but I do mind what kind of Savior they proclaim and what kind of gospel they proclaim.
To give you an idea of what I mean by that, check out the following websites:
http://www.theopenscroll.com
http://www.sabbatarians.org
Both persons “calculated the beginning of the tribulation around April 20 2008, but clearly mention they could be wrong,as they have been before.And most importantly: they don’t ask for money and they certainly don’t want a following.
And finally: I tried to warn some people overhere in Flanders and Holland to flee Weinland, but to no avail. The one has become local elder, the other has become the “president for the work” in Europe. Once again I have been cast into the lowest parts of the pit. Somehow you get used to it….
April 13th, 2008 at 12:14 pm
About the POPE ….
What if the Pope starts talking like Ron W? Will Catholics all arround the world feel betrayed and quit their faith? I doubt it. I think the oposite will happen. Crusades anyone?
Its not a stretch to believe that the POPE may be thinking about the “end times” too … the Vaticans own intenernal documents and prohesies point to only one more Pope after him. They are pretty set in their ways and they havn’t ammended any of it yet.
April 13th, 2008 at 12:15 pm
Todaysfate;
You are mistaken, the nuke thing was the 1st trumpet, not the 2nd. Slippery as a snake bait and switch Ron the con man.
April 13th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
Kurt,
I think that article pretty much sums up the problem.
The problem with the idea that people are going to rise up, take charge, and fix these things is that most people can’t get past debating that there is a problem.
Thats the basis of why I believe its time for “God” to step in.
I dont see where the author came up with the “april” in the title.
April 13th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Interresting stuff Chris ….
We are so screwed.
Even the Mayans were right.
LOL
April 13th, 2008 at 12:33 pm
Todaysfate;
If you are looking for a prophet that ‘could’ be ‘it’- this guy is a way better choice than Ron…
http://www.rense.com/general81/prophet.htm
April 13th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Todaysfate said:
Yes … none of this makes Ron W the true prophet of the end times technically … but I really aint going to be concerned with the semantics of the whole thing if any of this shit starts happening.
But what if none of this $h!t happens? Oh, I see I asked to soon because Tf went on:
Or even anything remotely close.
There you have it. There will always be something “remotely close”. And if not, you’ll be worried about the prophesies of the next nut-case to come along.
Tf: You?
I’ll be concerned about his followers and those considering following him while having fun watching the train wreck that’s the “spokesman for the two witnesses” and at the same time fulfilling the one prophesy of Rotten Ronnie that will come true: that people will mock him.
April 13th, 2008 at 12:52 pm
That is only if Rotten Ron does not find some way to make Deut. 18:20
a self-fulfilling prophecy for both he and his wife while they are in Jerusalem Ekimks. 
April 13th, 2008 at 12:54 pm
Hmmm. Wonder what time their flight was? Think they cleared customs on either end?
April 13th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Todaysfate said:
I could ask you the same about the prophecies of Muhammad.
But… I’m not.
Nor can you prove with 100% certainty that space pigs from Uranus didn’t fly out of my left nostril last night.
TF, you’re looking at states for Yellowstone State Park and using that as a gauge for some Revelation-based prophecy?
Dude, have you lost your sense of reason entirely, or did you merely loan it to someone as a favor?
What you need to be looking at are the ACTUAL facts — the number of earthquakes the “globe” has experienced in recent times. I posted the bloody link yesterday, but it appears that Grad is correct: No one reads this stuff.
So, here you go again:
Plus, this from the USGS website and Wikipedia (in case you wanted to get the Yellowstone facts right) –
The 4.2 quake in March is nothing new at all, nor are the “swarms” that account for jumps like you report.
Please read that again — THIS IS NOTHING NEW.
I know, I know… facts just ruin a doomsday party like there’s no tomorrow.
Ah…OH….what a punster I am…
April 13th, 2008 at 1:23 pm
According to FlightArrivals.com, a flight from NY-JFK to Tel Aviv takes 8.2 hours. I noticed that their flight scheduled for 2:32 was a half hour late getting off the ground. Maybe Ronnie was stupid enough to book on El Al, which I understand vets their passengers thoroughly, and a simple Google search would reveal him to be someone they don’t want on their airplane.
Anyway, if Ronnie and his 3 fellow nut cases manage somehow to clear the hurdles, it’ll probably be tomorrow morning before they get to Israel.
April 13th, 2008 at 1:24 pm
For Todaysfate and other EOTW types, concerning earthquakes…
Please read the post above concerning Yellowstone. Note the swarm of quakes in 1985.
Guess what? …
1985: Arnold Murray of the Shepherd’s Chapel predicted that the war of Armageddon will start on 1985-JUN 8-9 in “a valley of the Alaskan peninsula.”
1986: Moses David of The Children of God faith group predicted that the Battle of Armageddon would take place in 1986. Russia would defeat Israel and the United States. A worldwide Communist dictatorship would be established. In 1993, Christ would return to earth.
1987 to 2000: Lester Sumrall, in his 1987 book “I Predict 2000 AD” predicted that Jerusalem would be the richest city on Earth, that the Common Market would rule Europe, and that there would be a nuclear war involving Russia and perhaps the U.S. Also, he prophesized that the greatest Christian revival in the history of the church would happen: all during the last 13 years of the 20th century.
All of the predictions failed.
Now, here’s the interesting part — do some digging on their evidence for the end of the world.
You’ll find the Yellowstone swarms mentioned every time. Had they checked their history books, they would have known that swarms were common. But no……
People, wake the f–k up. Please.
No, really.
April 13th, 2008 at 1:27 pm
E;
Wouldn’t it be hilarious if the flights were canceled? I mean, it’s happening with American Airlines left and right.
I can hear the newsflash now…
God’s First Witness Detained In Customs; Tribulation Postponed Due To Technical Problems; Satan Held For Questioning; Film At 11:00…
April 13th, 2008 at 1:29 pm
Jon;
Please calm down, it’s not the end of the world.
April 13th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Isn’t it strange that none of us has mentioned or thought of RWs real power to come? Follow this for a minute: Ron declares that there is a spirit world that we cannot see, right? Therefore; technically, he could (and probably will) use that to his benefit when explaining why things aren’t happening on THIS earth or in THIS United States. His prophesies will all come to pass in other dimensions that we the little people cannot see. In addition, he will not have to admit to being a PHALSE PROFIT because he will use and twist the spirit realm thing as he does everything else.
By the way, his excuse for wanting to be overseas on the 17th is so absurd that even his followers should have gotten a clue and held back their tithes for the time being. But as RW says, you can’t be on his team if you don’t pay your dues. Us regular folk just aint gonna get inta Heaven til we win the lottery.
April 13th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
LOL Ekimks that’s hilarious…..wonder if they did get on the flight? I can’t see it only being delayed for half-an-hour though if Rotten Ron got found out at customs. The Weinlands and the Harrells will have to lie awful low until the 21st, if they didn’t even make it onto the plane.
The “Passover service” can be performed, indeed even uploaded, from anywhere. Even money says those round-trip tickets Weinland keeps mentioning might very well be cashed in post-haste, as soon as the wheels hit the ground………..
April 13th, 2008 at 1:44 pm
Kurt said:
I’m not the lunatic who thinks it is — but unless people start reasoning their way through this bullshit, we could end up destroying ourselves in hopes of fulfilling some ridiculous prophecy.
That’s something to be alarmed about.
Well, that and the rampant misquotation of facts.
April 13th, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Does anyone know when RWs power kicks in? I mean what time zone? I’m pretty sure that if he is the real deal, I’m at the top of his shit list for hand outs of heart attacks and would sort of like to know when exactly on the seventeenth I will begin my decent. My parents are having me over for dinner to honor MY birthday, not Rons. Just wondering. Thanks.
April 13th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
Jon;
Just kidding, and reason is overrated.
Use the force- intuition.
April 13th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Weinlandwatch,
Ron has cleared customs several times over. Chrismas, Easter, Halloween, Mothers day, Fathers day, Memorial day, Labor day, Independence day, Columbus day, Earth day. It’s not official, but I’m pretty sure he even cleared Thanksgiving.
April 13th, 2008 at 2:04 pm
Michael;
Don’t flatter yourself.
There are a lot of sick, vile, twisted, evil, syrupy, saccharin, pus filled, speedo wearing, distorted, blasphemous, and prideful individuals out there who are gonna feel the wrath of Gods end time witness before he gets to you buddy.
You’ll see ‘em dropping in front of you like domino’s.
April 13th, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Let’s not forget that gaud’s day starts at sunset of the evening before. So “April 17th” really begins Wed evening.
According to this site
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=110
Jerusalem is currently on Daylight Savings Time, GMT +3 hours. Sunset tonight is 7:07 PM, on Weds evening would be a few minutes later.
So RW begins his job at sunset on the 16th at about 7:10 PM Jerusalem local time. If you are on Central Daylight Time, GMT -5 hours, that would put you at about 11:10 AM Wed. morning. But if I’m misunderstanding what RW means by the “17th” it would be the same time Thurs morning.
So Michael, either way your parents will just have to celebrate your birthday Thurs evening without you.
April 13th, 2008 at 2:23 pm
My thought on the Lifton thought reform model from earlier:
Where were all of my employers trained on how to utilize those techniques?
April 13th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Michael Says:
“My thought on the Lifton thought reform model from earlier:
Where were all of my employers trained on how to utilize those techniques?”
Masters of Business Administration?? Just a guess………..
April 13th, 2008 at 2:34 pm
WW said:
a self-fulfilling prophecy for both he and his wife while they are in Jerusalem”
“That is only if Rotten Ron does not find some way to make Deut. 18:20
The very fact that Ron was able to draw enough breath to chastise us demons in his sermon yesterday afternoon is proof that even if there is a god the bible is not his word.
April 13th, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Please note I said SELF-fulfilling prophecy. God not included. Sackcloth and humility sold separately.
April 13th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
I forgot to use ‘perverted’. Senior moment. Anyway, moving on here. Here is a preview of Ron obtaining his powers.
Micheal, your one of them domino’s in the middle- about left whisker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrHcbizB2cI
April 13th, 2008 at 2:47 pm
WW, I did notice that you said “self-fulfilling”. No, I don’t expect RW to self-fulfill that prophecy even if by some extreme stretch of the imagination he admits to being a self prophet.
I still stand by the point I made about how this invalidates the bible.
April 13th, 2008 at 2:53 pm
Ekimks,
Thanks for the TIME stamp. I am still very confused about the concept of time and have a difficult time differentiating between time, moments, and occurrences. In my eyes, I would say that RW would gain his power when the light of the Sun strikes whatever temple in Israel. Then the question of when would become how and our focus and understanding would change to something of more significance.
April 13th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Hey now. There are far better reasons proving that the bible is invalid than just the fact that Weinland is delusional.
April 13th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Kurt,
I spent a great deal of my chilhood setting up dominoes. Why anyone would set them up in a way that would take them all out at once is astonishing.
April 13th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
OK ALL, LATEST ON THE POPE…
His Holiness Pope Benedict the XVI will be visiting ground ZERO (on the 20th) and praying that Muslim terrorists convert to Christianity. You can read more here
http://www.weaselzippers.net/blog/2008/04/pope-will-pray.html
It is my understanding that during his visit he will be addressing the Sex Abuse Scandals, talking about sin, and asking the USA to get her Soul back to morality.
While this is BOLD for recent Popes and I’m sure terrorits will be PISSED OFF (cant wait), I would not say that this makes me SHOCKED!!! - But then again Ronnie says the Devil does not affect him until the 17th…Since hes already planned the content of his talks (PRIOR TO THE DEVIL), I would expect the things he ACTUALLY says to be different than what is planned if Ronnie is correct and the Pope wants the destruction of the USA..per RW
Here is the Popes schedule:
http://www.uspapalvisit.org/itinerary_en.htm
April 13th, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Sorry Firestorm for the misunderstanding. Regarding RW’s sermon yesterday, the disclaimers at the end were priceless.
1. Respect law enforcement.
2. Direct underage kids who are interested in the teaching back to their parents.
3. Respect the laws of your country.
4. Assist those who are injured during a disaster, even on the sabbath.
Translation:
1. I don’t want to piss off any of these sinful, sick, and perverted cops who are not in COG because they have the REAL POWER to arrest my ass.
2. I don’t want to be sued for luring underage kids with my fairytale claim of being an end time witness that makes Harry Potter look like nonfiction.
3. Respect the laws of Man’s demonic governments because I don’t want to be under surveillance and raided just like other men of my ilk.
4. We will assist our sick and twisted neighbors in a disaster because we are a loving harmless group, even though I stated that I’d be the one causing these disasters with my superpowers. WE ARE HARMLESS, DON’T BEAT ME UP!
It seems RW has more fear for secular laws and praxes of this world than sticking to his point that all nonbelievers are perverted scum and they we are destined to suffer by god utilizing RW himself as the arbiter of this suffering. Why would RW give a shit what laws are in place? After all it is the end times. These caveats clearly show how concerned RW is with worldly law, and so he should be!
April 13th, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Yo Ronnie! When your job as one of the two witnesses and the spokesman for both begins on April 17th, make sure you smile big for the cameras! After all, you have to entertain us demons!
Speaking of demonic………kurt I have just spent the better part of an hour and a half watching FlippyCat videos. I hate you. And I say that with love.
April 13th, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Kurt,
Personally, I think first in line ought to be people who abuse apostophe’s.
April 13th, 2008 at 6:19 pm
WW said “There are far better reasons proving that the bible is invalid than just the fact that Weinland is delusional”
Absolutely agreed. One better reason is that air is still moving in and out of Rotten Ronnie’s lungs in contradiction to the verse you linked, which reads:
But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.
That is unless gaud commanded Ronnie boy to falsely prophesy.
April 13th, 2008 at 6:23 pm
Kurt,
An axiom for many, much to the chagrin of your neruodendrites.
Path of intuition:
1. Sense, funny feeling, hunch.
2. Process said sense, funny feeling, hunch.
3. Use reason to determine its meaning.
Step 4 in this process for theists is generally “Dismiss reason and pray for answer.”
Answers are then delivered in intuitive fashion.
Like circles? ; )
April 13th, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Ekimks,
Damn God’s ambiguous time-tables… : )
April 13th, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Wait just a sec…
I just noticed something in that scripture I overlooked:
Explain every prophet of Islam, Krishna, Vishnu, etc. who lived.
Yet another damn lie. They keep racking up…
April 13th, 2008 at 6:52 pm
i think they ARE all dead, Jon. sorry, couldn’t resist on that one…
April 13th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Hey Jon. Don’t mess with Krishna, I dig George Harrison.
April 13th, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Jon: according to the bible, Weinland will not be “going to heaven” or the equivalent he believes in. From Revelation 22
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this
Specifically Ronnie has dared to define the thunders that John was forbidden to describe in Revelation 10
: 3-4. So he will die from one of the trumpets.
If that’s not enough, Revelation 11:3-4
says that the two witnesses will prophesy for 1260 days. How long has Ronnie been prophesying? Yet another contradiction.
April 13th, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Ironwolf: Hope I haven’t raised your ire by posting scripture. I’m not going to start preaching, just seems I might not have made my point in another exchange.
I didn’t realize ’til now that your blogging software automatically converts a bible book chapter:verse into a hot link. Very cool. As far as HTML in the comments, is there a FAQ somewhere that tells what codes are and are not allowed inside comments?
April 13th, 2008 at 8:22 pm
The weinlands live in n. kentucky not cincinnati, OH. Someone was searching through property records of Hamilton County and did not find them listed because they do not live there.
April 13th, 2008 at 8:23 pm
Pictures of the Two Witnesses
http://www.hwarmstrong.com/prophecy-index.htm
click on the “The Two Witnesses” link. Others identified: “The Anti-Christ”.
April 13th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
If you want to write ronald directly(which I think is a waste of time because he will not reply because the evangelists and elders answer e-mail now) just do a web search put in the weinland name and type in the state of kentucky.
April 13th, 2008 at 8:43 pm
I was not scared away as other posts have suggested. I have been doing other items the last two weeks or so. I decided to post regarding the letter written in the latest sermon this week. I hope the person who wrote the e-mail in yesterday’s sermon will reconnect with their friends and family and not allow anything rob them of long-term personal relationships. Individuals in any place of worship should not severe ties with their fellow man. It is sad and distressing that close and/or personal relationships are being cast aside just to join a particular place of worship. Placing God above all is paramount, but Christ, the apostles, and the Bible does not teach human beings to isolate themselves from the rest of humanity. We are to be in the world, but not be of the world. I find it interesting the same biblical quotes used by Weinland in the sermon directly contradicts the e-mail message.
April 13th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
W:
A Google search such as you suggested was unenlightening. Similarly, a search of an online phone book was unrevealing. I’m not surprised as Ron doesn’t want a bunch of nutcases knocking on his door, birds of the feather etc.
If you have more specific information as to where Weinland lives, please share it.
April 13th, 2008 at 9:32 pm
why would it be necessary from me to tell you something that is so obvious. Yes, I know where the family lives, but I have to respect the privacy of everyone including the weinlands. I am not going to post the personal contact information of anyone on a public site. So, if you want to know they live then take the time out to write them, then go back look it up again.
April 13th, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Ekimks,
Just for clarity, I think the entire thing is nonsense. Just so I’m clear on my stance. So, certainly I agree with Ronnie being a loon from the 6th dimension.
But theologically-speaking, at least as I understand it (feel free to chime in) John was forbidden to write about the thunders. As far as I know, this was not forbidden that anyone else speak about it.
And, technically speaking, “adding to the book” is really quite vague. Interpretation could be considered adding, but John was probably referring to the all too common practice of elders tossing their $.02 worth in upon the reading to the church.
Now, what’s really interesting is that Revelation literalists can read Revelation 12:4
and render “seal up” exactly as it’s written. Yet the same folks can read Revelation 22:10
and skip right over the commandment not to seal the prophecy, for the time is near.
Daniel is instructed to do the exact opposite - to seal the prophecy for “future generations.”
It’s clear Revelation was intended for John’s immediate audience, from 1:1 on.
Unless people get this, whackos like Weinland will just keep on coming. But, alas, a voice in the wilderness I am… ; )
April 13th, 2008 at 9:53 pm
P.S. A trumpet at high volume could theoretically jack noradrenaline levels to the point where an MI could occur.
So, yeah. That’s one way to fulfill a warning.
Anyone play?
(I kid, I kid…)
April 13th, 2008 at 10:20 pm
w says:
I find it interesting the same biblical quotes used by Weinland in the sermon directly contradicts the e-mail message.”
Which biblical quotes were the ones that directly contradicted the email message? Weinland quoted from John 15
, and John 17
, and the “be not conformed to the world” verse(s) were expanded on in greater detail from the March 22 sermon. That would tend to support, not contradict, the contents of the email in question.
Also particularly distressing was how Weinland was “excited” by the man’s committment to the church, to the detriment of losing his house, his job and his family (which in the letter the poor guy states “that is OK”). Since he has lost his employment, and will no longer be an income source for the church, he is likely to be disfellowshipped soon anyway, and will hopefully be able to pick up the pieces of his shattered life.
That is if the letter was one that was actually written, and not a “parable” told by one of the two end-time witnesses to get the church member’s to emulate it.
You talk out of both sides of your mouth, “w”; on the one hand you give pertinent inside information on the church that raises red flags, and on the other hand you say that the church members should not be acting in the ways that Weinland clearly expects, and is quite blatantly encouraging them towards.
April 13th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
Pardon any typos I am lacking in either sleep or caffeine. Think I’ll catch up on the former.
April 13th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
One last thought and then I really must sleep: “Be not conformed to this world” is every bit as isolating, if not MORE isolating, than being holed up in some survivalist compound is; the Branch Davidians and the People’s Temple members were physically isolated from the world and society around them; Church of God members (of whatever splinter) are mentally isolated from the world and society around them, including from their “unconverted” families and friends, because they have the special inside knowledge of being “the first-fruits” and “the chosen elect” (Lifton’s criteria is met once again).
Mental isolation leaves a hell of a lot more psychological scarring than does physical isolation. In my opinion which is supported by experience.
April 14th, 2008 at 7:29 am
WeinlandWatch,
Tell me the WCOG doesn’t drift into Calvinism…does it?
I’m still learning about their stance on things. This would not surprise me. Hell, I’d even argue that it’s supported theologically, although like most of the NT doctrines, in a totally convoluted fashion, but it’s just one more thing to add to that special corner in heaven they intend to inherit.
April 14th, 2008 at 7:54 am
Jon,
First of all! I’ve never been a member of any church and the only two I ever visited were the Baptist and Brethren. I went to the Baptist, about two times, when I was ten. The Brethren, about a month, when I was twelve. Never joined either one.
When someone claims that another church is a cult, but theirs was not, it gives me the impression that they think they’re somehow more intelligent - or better.
I may have missed the ball there Jon; but I consider all churches on the same rough sea. Just a different boat. The insinuation that the Church of Christ are “nice folk” leaves the impression that the folks at WCG were bad. That may be true of the leadership, but that’s true of all other churches as well. The folks at the old WCG were not ignorant, or that is, no more than you were in your cultish experience with the COC. They were just normal, good, everyday people looking for the same thing we all need. The truth!
Now, as for the Temple, you seem to think we’re all children who were placed under the care of a youth minister - from the COC. How you came to this conclusion, I have no idea, but if you want to get in the head of Ron Weinland you’re standing in the wrong boat.
Ron Weinland gives us very little, in his books, as to what he truly believes. Therefore, we must assume that he’s taken a complete stand with Herb, on all doctrine that hasn’t been rebutted in his books. If this is the case, Ron believes the Temple now resides in his body (or his church). In other words; the lamp has now been passed to a new body of Christ. So you see Jon, I could care less what you think Jesus meant by the Temple. I’m here to take down Ron.
You may think that Ron will take himself down, but I doubt it.
Kurt! As to what other people do on my sabbath day, it’s not my call. I coach little league baseball on mine. I have no doubt that any of the splinters, or the old WCG, would not agree with this practice. That’s not their call. I’ve had parents of boys who will not let their kids practice, or play, on Sunday. That’s not my call. If Joe Smoe from Miss ooh rah, as R.W. says, bottle’s a beer on Saturday and I drink it on Sunday - I feel no pain. So let the condemning begin.
I’ll help someone out on my Sabbath, but I’ll be damned if I’ll let any man rule me.
Hence forth, I’ll try not to answer criticism. I’m here to stop the scourge.
April 14th, 2008 at 8:36 am
Ekimks,
It’s quite all right do mention scripture here. But there’s a big difference between referring to it as part of one’s argument/position/fantasy, and preaching from it. I have the Scripturizer plug-in here so people can avoid pasting long Bible passages and just focus on what they want to say about it. This is, above all, a conversation.
April 14th, 2008 at 8:39 am
Ekimks,
Oh, I also meant to add about the HTML: Most standard styling HTML tags are legal here, although I recommend you stick to the most common and avoid going nuts with styles that are likely to cause bleeding eye sockets. If a comment uses more than four links, it will automatically be held pending approval.
April 14th, 2008 at 8:52 am
Jon you said:but it’s just one more thing to add to that special corner in heaven they intend to inherit.
The COG’s do not believe in going to heaven in the traditional sense. They believe the kingdom of God will be established here on this earth.
April 14th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Dodger,
I think you may have missed the many posts saying nice things about people here and the intention of that statement. It was meant to be cheeky — “nice” but completely lost in their own theological world.
I have never walked into a WCOG. I have no idea if their environment is ‘nice’, nor have I ever accused them of being a cult. Many people here have, but I have not. I will say that the Ronnieites are a cult, as would be any tribe of EOTWers in my book, but that’s not a reflection on the church as a whole.
I have no clue what this references. What “temple” are you referring to? And what of this “youth minister from the CoC” reference?
I think you’ve either read only a few posts of mine or have yet to have your morning coffee.
Let me clarify: I was a youth minister and a theologian. I am now an agnostic at best; soft atheist is probably a better description. Other than speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem, I have never discussed any ‘temple’.
I am not here because of Weinland and his wacky band of followers. I am here because the entire ideology of “end times” needs to be reexamined to prevent this kind of crap from happening for the rest of time. And, I could also care less about having any “followers” of my own.
If someone is questioning this from a theological perspective, I can lend an opinion, and definitely debate the issue handily with those who care to engage.
That’s it.
Jon
April 14th, 2008 at 9:00 am
Jon asks:
‘WeinlandWatch,
Tell me the WCOG doesn’t drift into Calvinism…does it?”
Apparently that is where they’re heading, at least according to AW and The Surprising God blog.
If you want a real laugh, check out some of the earliest posts on TSG; watching the ministers trying to explain trinitarianism to each other, after lifetimes of believing in and teaching binitarianism, is the best entertainment to be had without the use of illegal narcotics.
April 14th, 2008 at 9:01 am
Pastor Porter said,
Ah, cool. Thanks for the clarification Pastor. So, they are literalists in every sense of the word? Do people like RW offer a “new” theology, or merely an elaboration on what the church as a whole generally accepts?
Thanks for the tutorial on this. So many denominations, so little time. : )
Jon
April 14th, 2008 at 9:07 am
WW,
So, wow…
Were the binitarianism folks Semi-Arian in their understanding? Jesus was ‘created’ and therefore not part of the party?
I find the first 300 years of Christianity fascinating. It’s hard to believe it could even coalesce into a uniformed faith.
Oh, wait… it really hasn’t. : )
There’s a lot of different “arians” and “isms” in Christendom.
Jon
April 14th, 2008 at 9:09 am
Fred tells us:
“The COG’s do not believe in going to heaven in the traditional sense. They believe the kingdom of God will be established here on this earth.”
Hey Fred. It’s been three-quarters of a century. That kingdom still ain’t come yet! Long-time CoG ministers like Weinland, Flurry and Meredith, got so fed up with waiting, they all decided to force “god’s” hand with different dates. Weinland’s is coming up “by Pentecost or July” (unless he moves the goalpost further ahead as he has already done with February, March, and April).
That kingdom just isn’t coming Fred; you and your parishioners need to live in the here and now, not spend all your sabbaths dreaming gently of the wonderful world tomorrow. Try focusing on the world TODAY; because in the end that is all we really have. Anything else is pure fantasy that needs to be set aside. In my opinion.
April 14th, 2008 at 9:20 am
Jon:
Yes, WCG was semi-Arian.
The Systematic Theology Project that the church produced, and then quickly rescinded, relied on the Gospel of Barnabas for a lot of the core “tenets” of Armstrongism. (Ex-members have been quite badly startled, upon stumbling across the Gospel of Barnabas, to find just how similar the non-canonical text is, to things we were taught all of our lives.)
For an overview of the beliefs and tenets of the Church of God (Armstrong), I recommend the Wikipedia collection here. It is by no means exhaustive, but it is a good starting-point, if you are new to the ideologies and theologies of the church (and its currently-extant splinters).
I hope that helps.
April 14th, 2008 at 9:34 am
Found a better webcam! Here is a live view of the Western (Wailing) Wall. Too cool!
Where’s Witness? Weinie needs a red-and-white striped shirt…………..
April 14th, 2008 at 9:41 am
WW,
I’d love to chat with you offline or in the IW chat room sometime. Sounds like we have distant origin roots. ; )
Thanks for the tactical.
Ah, the Gospel of Barnabas. You know, kids often get that confused with the Gospel of Barney. I hear some now believe in evolution, not to mention purple, annoying sacrificial critters.
It’s a mess I tell ya…
April 14th, 2008 at 9:42 am
BTW, for anyone interested, RW’s home is valued at $381,000. Not quite in the “oppulent” category for those looking at the $ angle.
April 14th, 2008 at 9:47 am
Happen to have is portfolio figures? : )
“The son of man rests his head on a rock.” — Jesus
“Yeah, but that rock was pretty damn upper middle-class…” — RW
April 14th, 2008 at 9:54 am
Now he says the nukes happen in the “second trumpet”, not the first. 45-90 days following April 17. This thing does keep moving…
I’ll hold him to the original April 17 date. His followers won’t though.
April 14th, 2008 at 10:00 am
jon, this is what has been taught all along. it is not new.
WW, we are not setting dates, we are looking for a future event, which also by your admonition every “church” should quit looking for the end, which is what all churches do, and that we should go and make the world a “better Place”. It is our belief that the world after the return of Christ , which we do not know when that will be, will be transformed into a place like the garden of eden over the period of a thousand years. That doesn’t mean that we do not or are not to do all we can to make the world better now. It is taught that we are to live our lives as living witnesses now.
April 14th, 2008 at 10:05 am
Okay, here’s some RW predictions from November of last year… with commentary, of course.
Perhaps this is old news to all of you, but I find it rather amazing that he has anyone listening to him after this bit of drivel –
Ronnie says…
Goodie.