Just got an SMS on my iPhone from Ronny: “4 DAYS B4 I CAN HAZ L337 SUPERPOWERZ, DEMUN D00DZ! FEER DA WITNESSEZ!!1!”
lol kthxbye.
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Wow. I had forgotten it was mentioned.
“This final statement, when applied to the 9/11 situation, would indicate the possibility, according to Southern Baptist estimates, that 2,077 people who died in that tragedy were then thrown immediately into a much worse tragedy—a never ending one, in an ever-burning hell.”
And we thought Weinland was cold on Saturday. That is seriously harsh.
I’m glad you are finding the site helpful though!
You have no idea. And add that to the vivid descriptions, funeral sermons for people our pastor believed were in hell, movies made to illustrate the horrors of hell, youth events where the concept of hell was acted out, halloween haunted houses about the great white throne judgement and hell… shall I continue?? or do you get the picture that leaving my faith is VERY RISKY!! I laughed when I read Kurt’s remark
I was not laughing at Kurt because I can see that most reasonable people would agree with him. I was laughing because it is the most dramatic decision I’ve ever made — either way.
Todays Fate;
Did you mean bombs going off April 17 instead of May?
The stuff you talk about getting worse may very well be true, but you can find bad trends at anytime in history.
How do these things relate to Ron the prophet. They should correspond to his thunders. I see economy, famine and war. I see those, if Ron said they were thunders. Disease may be there as well, and collapse of ecological systems. Does this fit with Ron’s prophecy?
Hey ironworlf, before the big day comes can you put together a poll or something?
Like…
Yes! I believe him!
No! He’s a freaking nutcase!
or
Just wating to find out.
Oh I can sympathize; for disfellowshipped members of the church back in the day, they ran the risk of being in the third resurrection……..but even then it wasn’t eternal torment, it was a long walk of a short plank into the lake of fire, and your soul was dead forever.
When the church splintered, people were deathly afraid they were going to end up in the third rez because they couldn’t decide which of the (at that time four or five) splinters was “god’s one true church”. There is no doubt in my mind that there are still members of “the scattered church” out there who are splinter-hopping, in an effort to keep their souls out of the Lake of Fire after the end of the world.
I guess what I’m trying to say is, it seems that your experience is the flip side of the Church of God experience; whereas you have been indoctrinated with a fear of eternal torment, were indoctrinated with an absolute terror of eternal death, nothingness, oblivion. After spending our last few conscious seconds in sheer agony of course.
I definitely get the picture that, for you, “leaving the faith” is very risky. But I would also ask you to consider what you stand to gain from either choosing another religious path, or turning away from religion altogether. If your answer is, “To not be afraid anymore,” then surely that is a positive risk to take, even if it is the most life-altering one you have ever made.
There is a full discussion board here of ex-believers who can offer you more than adequate testimony that living without fear is definitely a better way to live!
I hope that’s helpful.
Katie;
I cannot believe that God would so lovingly create me after having previously creating an eternal hell that he intended to place me for the short comings he built into me, and the choices he knew I would make. Not my loving God.
The church down the street would like you to believe they can save you from eternal suffering if you hand over your puppet strings, in my opinion.
Katie;
Unless this is like that movie ‘fight club’, where that guy has a duel personality, I am not Lucifer! No guarantee on my sanity-sorry.
WW, this is just the kind of “mental abuse” that Ironwolf is trying to expose and help people try to escape. (I hope you don’t mind me speaking for you IW — I’ve just heard you say it before) I know he didn’t have Southern Baptists in mind when this all started, but from this ex-SB, I want to thank him. I want to thank him on behalf of my children, who I have already “messed up” with in ignorance, but will NEVER EVER abuse thier precious little hearts and minds with this mess again. My mission is to help my family to see the light that I’ve found here, too. Thank you all! I know I am on my way toward freedom that I have never had.
Man, I have not cried this much in years!!
Katie;
My wife and kids belong to the Southern Baptist Church.
Well, I don’t know if they are southern, but they are Baptist.
Kurt,
Check this article out….
http://isitreallytheend.wordpress.com/2008/04/14/abbas-watchman-corroborating-weinland-with-iran-bombing-story/
Todaysfate;
Where did that come from?
Anyway, that talks about nuclear attack on Iran- not the US.
1. Because we have made ourselves too busy and blind to see what’s happening … (which is why there has to be a prophet)
2. Because the Bible says clearly that the actual prophet will not be looked as favorably by most people … while the false prophet gets all the glory and is the poster child for all that is “good”.
Even if Ron W was told by God what was coming … all he truly admits to being told is that is “starts” on April 17th. In other words … Ron W direct “link” isn’t established yet. So like I have said before … I just think this gives Ron W room for error and for some of his own “creative liberty” … for now.
Its not surprising that Ron W comes accross as a complete loser … he is after all a victim of the same church some of you are.
So ….
Based on my faith … I believe that if Ron W truly is what he claims to be … one of the first things he will be told to do … or it will just come to him (a la the Moses way) is that his own church is wrong and and will make changes … perhaps disband altogether. I guess I could be wrong … but I think that would be a first step … that and some kind of “miracle”. I don’t know …. maybe he will turn a stick into a snake.
That said … I think Ron W will know in his own heart before April 17th is over whether or not he has been misguided.
I believe he also “expects” some kind of spiritual awakening that day and if he doesn’t feel it … then hes going to know. I doubt he will share that information with us that soon … but you never know.
It will be interresting to hear him speak on April 19th. I think that the proof will be in his words … I would expect him to sound like a completely different person if he is real.
Do I have to spell it out for you?
Assuming that threat is real … A nuclear attack by the US on IRAN at the same time Bush is entertaining the POPE may create some sort of “shock” and horror…. especially of the POPE is backing the action up and declaring some type of new “crusade”. Wouldn’t you say?
Whao ….
But read further … what about the threats to Russia to not get involved? Well considering that Russia is where all of those so called unsecure black market cold war nukes are … say they did something under the table to assist in a retaliation against the US. Might it take a few months to get some bombs together … give them to the operatives, sneak them over the border … etc … That would be right about June – July.
I did’t ponder the idea before … but one good reason anyone would even want to nuke us might be if we nuked first. Just a thought.
Does it make Ron W THE prophet … not really … because that pesky first trumpet … the one about the dectruction of all those plants and such … has to happen in the meantime.
Which Kattii dauer said would be a biblical flood from the great lakes to the gulf of mexico.
Todaysfate;
Very well, I see your point. God’s witnesses are faulted and easily mocked. Ron fits that.
I see the things happening that could fulfill his prophecy. War with Iran.
I will even give him until the 19th, to hear what he has to say about events or lack thereof.
You could very be well right about this.
When I approach a green light while driving in my car, in my mind I set a point at which I will brake or go if the light changes to yellow. I do this well beforehand. This is so I do not get into trouble.
Have you set a point for Ron to be true or false?
Todaysfate,
I like Abba, especially Dancing Queen. There are literally thousands of these conspiracy websites with Peak Oil, Illuminati stuff, and even Asteroids that will cause our demise. You must really dislike humanity, and yourself.
I have a prophecy by god himself: Todaysfate will meet his end long before the world is destroyed. It may be tomorrow, or by the end of 2008. That is a much more realistic prediction, ponder it, and dwell on it, because it’s real.
katie,
“My mission is to help my family to see the light that I’ve found here, too. Thank you all! I know I am on my way toward freedom that I have never had.”
my question:
are you tending now towards God but away from SB religion, or away from God altogether?
awwww maaaaaannnnn…. I just thought of something absolutely terrible. Horrible even!! this is worse than losing New York!!!!
If Ron is right, there’s a solid chance we may never get the latest release of Ubuntu on the 24th!!! does anyone know if Ron has mentioned the phrase “Hardy Heron” in his sermons or books? hopefully, right next to the phrase “will still be available”? just looking for a ray of hope.
why can’t we ever lose anything useless like Berkley in these things???
You heard it here first folks … If I die before the end of 2008 …
Then Robert Demarco is a murderer.
Absolutely …. usually they don’t all come together arround the same date or time though (2011/2012) … Along with some coincidental things such as the Mayan calandar, last two Pope prohesy, unexplained disapearance of BEEs, global warming, economic colapse… etc.
Anyone catch the history channel episode describing Earth after mans extinction? Seems to me Ron may be getting his revelations from the writer of these programs. I was convinced after the scene of a stainless steel sink lasting longer than the Statue of Liberty. Makes about as much sense as RWs extended predictions.
Can someone help me with the following subject?
The one shred of evidence that there may in fact be a higher intelligence (other than Ron) is the scripture that numbers a mans days at 120 years. Has anyone been proven to have liven past the 120 mark? In addition, it would be very difficult to prove this considering that nobody that was alive 130 years ago is alive today and in all likelyhood nobody alive today will be alive 130 years from now. The burdon of proof on this matter would come to FAITH in science, would it not?
Todaysfate,
Thanks man! Having real data helps. Good points, too. Here’s my feedback if anyone cares…
I’m a member of the WPO, so I know these stats all too well. Yes, GW is a definite and real threat to humankind. And overpopulation has been a concern for far longer than you or I have been alive.
GW is like high blood pressure — it’s virtually a silent killer until the actual disease strikes with a vengeance.
The fact that some GW effects look like those you see in any end-time scenario is hardly proof of anything. And GW has not radically increased in 2008 — it’s far more gradual than that, although not quite as gradual as Bush would like it to be.
If there is a doomsday plot, GW may be quite real. But, unlike the Bible, ‘we’ are the ones doing the damage, not God. And we are the ones fully capable of stopping it.
Worse off for sure, but historically no where near as bad as the 20s or the 70s. Remember, we’re looking for something so powerful its incomparable. GW is closer to the mark.
Also, the Euro is strong. The US economy is slacking, but other parts of the world are not. And these things are ALWAYS cyclical. Remember the recession in the 70s? Four years later, we had the largest boom in decades with the early 80s.
Another good, legitimate concern — but again, nothing we have not faced before with other environmental/ecological concerns. Rain forests, for example. It’s again nothing like Revelation, unless I glossed over that, “And then the bees that thou does dependeth upon did slack, and…”
Okay, we’re talking FEBRUARY here. Let’s just keep things in perspective. Do remember that I asked for things from this year, specifically February. You also seem to be keen on things happening in America. Homelessness has not increased statistically world-wide over the past five years.
You are also forgetting that the vast majority of homeless people choose to be homeless, living as nomads. Also, the census on the homeless is very challenging to take, as any homeless organization will tell you. Finally, while NYC saw its second largest homeless population in 2007, other cities saw a decrease in the homeless (mine for one) and veteran homelessness (the largest sub-section behind drug addicts) decreased 21% as of January 2008.
Finally, a quote from one of the directors of EHN — “Figures on urban homelessness are notoriously unscientific, invariably based on estimates from city officials with a vested interest in increased funding. As Times Watch demonstrated back on May 29, The U.S. Conference of Mayors has claimed hunger and homeless have been rising ever since the conference issued its first report back in 1987. From 1987 to 2002, the Mayors have reported an average increase in demand for emergency shelter of a staggering 14% a year.”
It is a problem for sure, but it’s been a problem for a long time.
Uhh… no. It’s decreasing:
This is leveling off in 2008 (that was from end-of-year 2007), but no where near as high as divorce rates even five years ago.
Also, a bit of irony: Christians have a higher divorce rate (by like 4%) than any other religion, with atheists/agnostics at the lowest end of the chart.
Huh.
This is just a lack of historical sense coming out. To ‘our’ perspective, ‘our’ youth has seen an increase in violence. But certainly not compared with violence as a whole, or even violence among children in the middle ages.
I think you’re landlocked in 21st century America when reading Revelation.
Most of these issues are impossible to accurately gauge. Drugs are notoriously under ‘and’ over-reported, as is premarital sex, due to the nature of saying “yes” (to be cool) or “no” (to not get caught.)
Here’s a nugget: The teenage pregnancy rate was actually at an all time high in the 1950s. (Wikipedia.org.)
The rest? Dude, they used to REALLY torture people and be okay with it. I just watched a documentary on the end-days for the Inquisition. If you want to see REAL gore, just look in your Bible and relatively recent church history.
That’s a far cry worse than “Hostel” movies.
Oh, come ON. “Increasing moral downfall”? Every decade has its Jimmy Swaggarts and Preacher Tedd’s, and this year is absolutely NOT out of the ordinary. Unless you count Bush, and then you have to go way back. Bush may be a fuckhead to me, but to you he may be okay as he’s never received oral sex from his intern.
Color me strange, but going to ‘war’ needlessly is a bit more immoral than Slick Willy’s willy.
Hogwash.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl2.htm
And you sir have a LOT of reading to do concerning world history. We have Mormons (for HOW many years now?) and Tom Cruise’s favorite money-milker, sure. But this is silly to compare to the rise of Islam in the 8th and 11th centuries, the birth of communism, the various other cultish religions springing up since the death of Christ, etc.
You were better off sticking to global warming.
You cannot measure “indifference” Fate. And even if you could, you are flat-out ignoring the massive increase in global aid, increased rights for the oppressed (both legally and now through more awareness), and so-on.
Do you really think in 1950 you would have seen thousands of people protesting with “Free Tibet” signs around the world?
You see this place as totally fucked up, and your vision is tainting your every waking moment.
The reality is we see what we want to see.
But more than that, the reality is none of these “top 10″ of yours is significant for the month of February or 2008.
Jon
P.S. It must suck to detest the behavior of the very people you are charged to love. Or, to quote a good movie: “You love America, but you can’t stand Americans.”
Think about it. Doubt you will, but the charge is levied.
Bible literalists prior to several people passing 120 would hold that number up as evidence; now they say, “God was giving a general figure.”
Within 50 years, our life span will be far greater than this. Prepare.
Yes.
Jeanne Calment, World’s Elder, died at 122 in 1997. This was well-documented and reported by the NY Times, as well as many centenarian sites. Here’s an article:
http://anson.ucdavis.edu/~wang/calment.html
But all this proves is that the Bible is not without error, and believe me, there are FAR better proofs than this. We never got around penguins on the ark, for cryin’ out loud.
Jon,
Excellent work!
Now to get to my point. I can twist this one subject every which way just as RW does and convince a significant number of individuals that my line of thinking is correct. Even though common sense tells us otherwise.
For example, was Jeanne coherent? Was the coherency likened to that of someone under the age of 120 years? Was Jeanne on any life support systems? Who stood at the funeral that witnessed the birth and death of Jeanne?
Jon said: May I ask you an obvious question? Does it strike you as odd that Daniel would have been savvy enough to realize his prophetic utterances were for “future generations”, yet all the NT writers believed that their prophecies were for their generation?
not at all! people through the ages thought it was the end time, they could always pick out events that pointed to the “end times”. It hasn’t changed in 2000 years, with this exception, man now has in his power the ability to remove all life from the planet.
WW, We would love to make the planet like the garden of eden, everyone doing their part to help their neighbors achieve all they can.
By the way Pam Dewey is a member of a COG, we fellowship at some of the same conferences. We were at the same COG conference in December in Lexington KY.
Katie: As an atheist I could try to give a logical argument as to why I think you should believe as I do. But I from your conversation I sense the conflict is between your logic and emotion. Perhaps you need a bit of time to sort that out. I think the radio preacher’s suggestion about “praising god” is trying to get your emotion to overwhelm your logic.
And until you’re totally sure of which is to win out, might be best to hold off evangelizing your position with your family. And maybe you don’t need to evangelize them — that’s something I’ve chosen not to do. I don’t think anything positive would come of it, but you’ll have to evaluate your situation and decide for yourself.
Wish I had some better advice to give you, Hope it’s all permanently and satisfactorily sorted out for you soon.
Robt Demarco said I have a prophecy by god himself: Todaysfate will meet his end long before the world is destroyed. It may be tomorrow, or by the end of 2008. That is a much more realistic prediction, ponder it, and dwell on it, because it’s real.
I will rephrase: As Robt said, Todaysfate will meet his end long before the world is destroyed. It may be tomorrow, it may be before the end of the year. It might even be in 120 years. And from there I agree with the remainder of what Robt said.
Jon,
Its funny how you draw the conclusion that virtually anyone in the “faith” or any faith for that mater is part of the problem …. and that merely believing in God … or a creator automaticly means that one is missing the whole picture and is not doing “enough” to take care of the world on their own.
I say that is “hogwash”.
You draw conclusions and make assumptions as well.
For instance ….
Do you believe all “Christians” are right wing, republican, war mongering Bush supporters?
I mean … I know where you are coming from … but surely you can see where your arguments could in fact convince people of the vary same thing you believe the belief in God does (particuliarly his return in Jesus form) … that nothing is dire enough for any action to be taken.
Global Warming for instance. If this were the topic … you and I would be on the same side .. against a rather large group of people who simply do not believe it and will do nothing to help stop it … until its too late.
To quote myself.
against a rather large group of people who simply do not believe it and will do nothing to help stop it … until its too late.
Jon
Based on your vast knowledge of the ups and downs of humanity thoughout all time (despite you actually being there) … I am curious … do you believe mankind can get out of this Global Warming problem before it is too late? Or even more importantly … without “asking” people to make changes to their personal lives that they may not be willing to concur with?
Would you support a worldwide concensus that the United States … (the largest consumer in the world and the main source of corbon emissions) … MUST simply BE STOPPED, if it came to that?
Like you pointed out the other day … its better to simply convince people to give to the poor to eridicate world hunger and poverty rather thna going the “Robin Hood” route … but what happens when they just don’t wanna do that?
Having an “A” for effort doesn’t produce the final results.
So … if we can’t eradicate Global Warming …. most of us are just going to die? And thats it?
I believe that if that point comes … God will be there. Thats the difference.
Richard, I am undecided as of yet. Maybe these numbers will help you to understand where I am. These are subject to change at any second, of course… : )
100% – leaving my church
100% – leaving any evangelical traditional church
50% – leaving christianity
20% – leaving God altogether
Katie –
wow. After following your posts and listening to your call-in today, all I can say is that my heart goes out to you. We’re on the same page now sister!
When we started on the Is Belief in a God Reasonable page, I envied your faith. Now that we’ve dragged you down into the mire of ‘not knowing’ with us, you have my deepest sympathy. Welcome to the club
I wish I had some good advice for you, but all I can really say is keep open to new evidence. Heck, even Ironwolf gives Ron a 0.0001% chance of proving the Bible right
If you want a little atheist inspiration, I still really like the end of this video, (but you’ll have to sit through some anti-creationist propaganda, just to warn you). It makes a very good point about eternal life, I think.
Katie, I wish you the best in your journey. I think I can honestly promise you it’s just about to get interesting.
katie, my heart goes out to you in your struggle and as a fellow christian I wish that there were something that I could say to you to strenghen your faith. I can’t say that I have ever been in your shoes but there was a time (about 12 yrs ago to be exact) that I had to do a lot of soul searching and that has brought me to where I am today. I think that this is something we all have to do and no one can tell you what or what not to believe. You have to search yourself to find answers. Christianity is about living by faith, I don’t believe we are meant to have all the answers not in this life anyway. Some people look to hard and try to prove EVERYTHING. For some reason I don’t need proof, I live by my faith. I guess I am very fortunate. My faith hasn’t been shaken yet. I know what I know in my heart and I hope that you will come to that place and find that peace within yourself.
Just thought I’d toss this in. Should appeal to most, creationists, atheists, agnostics, fundies etc.. and especially the bored. http://www.thebricktestament.com/
Hello …
Are you sitting down? I might have some ‘bad’ news.
If anything happens in Jerusalem before 3:00pm (local time) on Thursday 17th most of you in North America will be asleep !!
When it is 10:00am in Jerusalem, it is :-
3:00am Eastern (Daylight Time)
2:00am Central
1:00am Mountain
midnight Pacific
When it is midday in Jerusalem, it is :-
5:00am Eastern
4:00am Central
3:00am Mountain
2:00am Pacific
When it is 3:00pm in Jerusalem, it is :-
8:00am Eastern
7:00am Central
6:00am Mountain
5:00am Pacific
But don’t worry, no doubt myself in New Zealand and “steve (lower case) in Australia” will keep our eyes and ears on the news services. (G’day mate!)
By the time you wake up in America we will probably have already posted any news on this blog.
Good luck
The equivalent times in NZ and eastern Aust. (Sydney, Melbourne) are :-
Jerusalem – 10:00am
NZ – 7:00pm
Aus – 5:00pm
Jerusalem – midday
NZ – 9:00pm
Aus – 7:00pm
Jerusalem – 3:00pm
NZ – midnight
Aus – 10:00pm
OK –
What’s the deal with RW imitating HWA in their portrait photos?
Compare:
http://bp2.blogger.com/_mRsH3bUB9ec/R__kVX70ZYI/AAAAAAAAANk/VVCiJBjpAYI/s1600-h/HWAP.JPG
WITH
http://bp1.blogger.com/_pO9nuJW3hvw/SABdjU-eWaI/AAAAAAAAAtM/oNilacswXfA/s1600-h/ronald_weinland.jpg
Here are the common elements:
1. Mahogany wing-back leather chair
2. Dark navy suit
3. Overly prominent french cuffs with cuff links
4. Elbows resting on sides of chair
5. Hands together
6. Head canted right
7. World globe nearby
The odds of this not being a coincidence are astronomical. The not-so-subliminal message seems to be “RW has stepped into HWA’s role and assumed his mantle.”
It could also be a form of “NLP modelling,” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NLP_Modeling
Assume the physiology = assume the role…
Thoughts?
G’day Stones mate. Yeh the time difference has had me a tad concerned for our brothers and sisters over there in the US of A. Doubt those OT prophets were aware of the International Dateline. In fact they probably thought the world was flat, but I’m not going there.. I’m off to bed. Goodnight New Zealand
Katie,
everyone wishes you best in your life. renton speaks for everyone here when he says that.
“Know thy self.” you are the only one who can think and decide for you. I’m not saying to disregard what you’re heard here, not at all, but make sure you are positive it is you who has decided and not someone new who may sound more convincing than the last person. there are many things that seem supremely convincing, but after a little more research weren’t so grand after all. do me one favor – don’t trade one thinker behind a pulpit for another thinker behind a library book.
might I ask you to consider something before your lower two stats go up any higher?
Is it really God that you should turn from, or prior misconceptions about Christianity and God?
This is why I said earlier – utterly clean the slate of religion from your mind (God hates religion) and seek God from an honest and sincere heart.
Miss B
“Some people look to hard and try to prove EVERYTHING.”
I like your post. Thanks for that.
Some people do try to prove, or disprove, every little detail. Which day is Pentecost, how long can men live, what happened to the Amalekites, what was Jesus’ true linneage, is there a hell? All of those things are purely external and utterly meaningless to what truly matters most. As Agrippa said to Paul “much learning is driving you mad!” As Solomon said “with much wisdom is much grief, and he who increases knowledge increases sorrow.” And Kant agrees with him.
You are right to say “we are not meant to have all the answers”. I confidently believe, with all faith, the answers to the things that are the most important, those things that make a pure and sincere heart from which love can flow outward to our fellow man, those things are clear and solid and without any wrinkle in the Bible. Its our confused pursuit for one religion or the other that confuses us. Can’t see the forest for the trees, as it were. Once we achieve what is best, we can pursue happily what is least.
I ask people all the time: name one outward show of religion, as pure as James’ definition of pure religion can be, that brought anyone closer to God. Saul had pure Pharisaic religion, as perfect as it can be practiced, the strictest Judaism, blameless, no man could do better… he killed people in honest zeal for his religiosity. How far from God was that? When he gave that all up, cleaning the slate of religion from his mind, He understood God. As did Job. As did Solomon.
Keep up your faith! And your wonderful view of the simplicity in Christ. And I’m glad to have met you.
Richard_Saunders, good advice to Katie….couldn’t have said it better myself.
Michael said,
When in faith, Google.
Er…’doubt’.
As you know, religious beliefs are not akin to common sense — but I’m okay with that from my own perspective to a point. Seriously. If there is a God who has bothered to communicate to us, albeit in a day and age where communication with the masses was literally impossible (perhaps that ‘no time for God’ concept isn’t working?), I’m sure there would be elements of the bigger truth that would appear to contradict common sense.
But such a belief would not betray our ability to remotely understand it. This is the most common argument from theists for why their god can do things that defy his own words, his own principles and definitions of “good”, “moral”, “compassionate”, “loving”, etc. But it fails miserably when you combine these facts with the fact that the ‘book’ from this God is absolutely full of holes, both contextually (contradictions and errors) and scientifically (rabbits do not chew their cud, Pi is not 3, the world is not flat nor immovable, there was not firmament, no global flood, and so-on.)
An analogy, for the two people reading this entry (heh) — physics. Can we understand physics? Of course we can. Can we totally understand all physics? No, we cannot — not at this point, and probably not for all of time. If we understood everything, science would come to a creeping halt. But physics does not betray itself. Our understanding evolves towards the greater rather than away from the source. And just as the laws of physics are dependable enough to fly to Mars, or take men to the moon and back, or send hundreds and thousands into the air every day with nary a disaster, so should be the laws of God — equally dependable.
But they are not. And the only difference is that you never see physicists trying to rationalize a principle supporting a law because it has contradicted all supporting evidence.
Anyhoo…
Not that any of that matters, but ironically (while Googling the story) I learned that she was amazingly dynamic. She took up fencing at 110, for example.
She fell at 115 (or 118…some very old age) and was in a wheelchair for the rest of her life. At 120, she was still making jokes and sharp-witted.
I guess it depends on what you call “coherent.” And, if that is the definition of “the span of his years”, then we have to re-write the dictionaries, as words simply do not make sense any longer.
And, btw — very few elderly people at any age do not suffer physical decline.
No. She died of natural causes — old age. Story here –
http://www.supercentenarian.com/oldest/jeanne-calment.html
Again, she’s not the only one:
http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/11/19/ukraine.oldest/
I’ll wait for the literalist to twist it around. I would imagine, “Oh…wait…he said HIS days…not HER days!”
Yeah. That’s the way to beguile the point. ; )
Pastor Porter,
I see.
So… the apostles and disciples wrote errant ideas down in a book supposedly God-breathed.
That is what should strike you as “odd”.
If they wrote this error, they obviously wrote more error, leaving the text wholly unsupported as divine guidance in all life.
Richard_Saunders,
I think you should come up with more of these great quotes and publish it maybe, something like “Great thinkers of the past encouraging to explore and learn” would be a good title for this collection. Kind of long but gives you the insight on what to expect. I think I will make “much learning is driving you mad!” quote part of my e-mail signature today. So far it has scored five stars out of five in my personal divine wisdom rating, immediately followed by “we are not meant to have all the answers”. And can you please elaborate more on that Kant agreeing with Solomon thought. It looks like a beginning of interesting point but seems incomplete without some reference or maybe a quote … I feel kind of sorry to leave it hanging there like that.
Regards,
Doc
Todaysfate, my favorite pillar of reason, said …
Geez. I drew that conclusion?
Wow.
Since I do not believe anything you just said, I will assume said conclusion will be delivered to me miraculously by the Holy Goddess of Quality Footwear.
I will then ask you to disprove it.
Nope.
Just the nearly 80% of you Fundies who voted for him in 2004. Mind you, this is an INCREASE from 2000, and on all religious fronts.
http://people-press.org/commentary/display.php3?AnalysisID=103
(And just think…I wasn’t even “THERE!” As in, at EVERY POLL! And still, somehow, I BELIEVE! Haaaleeuuuyaaaa!)
Nothing like WAR to win the hearts of the masses of sheep. It stands to reason — you worship the God of war (literally).
Uh.. no.
Unless they were haplessly moronic. Then, perhaps. But you can do nothing to reach those who believe in NASCAR. (heh… ; )
Interesting about GW however. What steps are you making to reduce your carbon emissions? Electrical use? Just curious.
And, just so we’re really freakin’ clear, the evangelical Christians (and Bush, one in the same) are the major demo NOT fully behind GW. Bush was YEARS behind taking action on the matter, and the US one of two countries left out of the original global pact.
http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070918/29346_Study:_Evangelicals_Least_Concerned_about_Global_Warming.htm
There. And it’s a Christian website, so you can trust the information.
(That was sarcastic, drippingly so at that, in case you missed it. : )
If you use the “I wasn’t there” rebuttal once more, I will simply ignore every post you make. It’s a pathetic attempt at discrediting valid historical study.
And it’s the very definition of irony, considering you believe Zombie Jesus rose from the dead and his dad, Jehovah “I Really Seem to Hate Babies” Jaira, likes to speak through an ass, all while NOT being there. Amazing.
Granted, he does that ‘today’, but not with the same flash and pizzaz.
To answer your question: Yes, I believe we can stop GW, but the people will not do it without help from the government. Guys like Arnold S are key in this battle to make consumers bend to environmental concerns.
Humans have always been greedy. It’s the only reason you are reading my words — greed. Greed is ‘good’, as Gordon Gecko once said, in that it marks the upward expansion of mankind. But greed is also “bad” when used to pander to our own self-interest alone.
Make GW something that does ‘both’ — helps the self and helps the world — and you have an effective greed bomb.
Doc,
I’m not entirely certain whether or not to reply. Not that I don’t think you’re being completely sincere…. I’m not saying that at all!! Your question is valid, I’m glad you are interested, I applaud your curiosity!
But.. is it wiser for me to reply to you and tell you what I think – which I assure you is worthless and of no value to anyone, and prone to error – or to advise you to search this out for yourself further?
I can tell you what I think the reason Kant and Solomon agree that ‘much learning brings sorrow’, is not at all a curse on learning itself. If “the truth will set you free”, then knowledge is not a bad thing. If we are told “grow in grace and knowledge”, then not only is it not a bad thing, but it is a good thing!! However, much knowledge plays on our pride, and we begin to see the flaws in others that we used to overlook when our opinion of ourselves was smaller.
Here’s an example: there is a man who has perfect recollection. A savant. You ask him anything – how was the weather on a certain day in 1972 – he’ll tell you everything, even what sandwich he ate for lunch. His gift is such a blessing! But it comes with a curse. He knows when people are incorrect, or lying. So, does he call them out on it? Does he keep his mouth shut and let it go? What can possibly be the right answer to that? It brings him much joy and much sadness.
Knowledge is WONDERFUL! But people are often ill prepared to deal with it. That’s really all Solomon and Kant are saying. That’s why I like the phrase “Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies.” Temper the knowledge with love!
And that’s really where I have to stop talking now. Don’t look to me for for your answers, I promise you one thing, I will let you down.
Doc,
I too enjoyed Richard’s post.
But… says who?
Saying we are ‘not meant’ begs the question. And, the same logic was applied to other events in history:
“If man were meant to (sail, drive, fly, go to the moon, etc.), he would have (fill-in-the-blank.)”
We may never have all the answers. I agree with that. But to lay down or give up the questions just because you conclude we cannot know everything, and in the process dismiss obvious fact in favor of obvious myth, is intellectual emasculation.
And how on earth do you draw the parallel between Kant and Solomon? Granted, Solomon believed in reason and deduction (see Proverbs 24), but he also believed that the summation of all life was to “love God and keep his commandments.” If that is all mankind did, we would be stuck in the bronze age. Nothing in God’s commandments spoke of researching disease, inventing flying machines, and so-on. True, one can claim they do these things because the “love God”, but if they truly “kept his commandments” (the ones Solomon is referring to) they’d be too bogged-down in ritual to do research.
And what of Solomon’s thoughts on God’s “eternal mercy”?
This is after the typical Jewish ranting about how God will “mock and laugh” at men who once rejected him and still seek some answers. Such a lovely parental figure, this God.
And what of the scripture above? Is it true? Since so many men have turned away from the “simplicity” of God’s truth, have they been destroyed by the prosperity of fools? More over, do believers “dwell safely”, quite from fear of evil?
Hardly — and this blog is proof if that, if not all of history. Believers are arguably the most terrified group of people on the planet.
One more thing about Kant: He wrote on religious subjects, of course. But his entire philosophy was Sapere aude!, if anything at all. “Dare to know” is a far, far cry from, “Knowledge is useless”. Also, Kant was an agnostic.
I’d love to hear how Richard sees a connection between the two men.
Richard said,
I admit, the last time I read Kant was in college, but a cursory glance over his Critiques did not reveal much of what you are claiming. Can you cite a source or a passage of reference?
I think knowledge brings both sorrow and freedom. i know Kant believed the latter, and I would imagine the former could be concluded somehow. But that sorrow is no different than the sorrow a child feels when he learns there is no Santa Claus, nor the freedom in discovering, at the same time, that he too can participate in the giving and spreading of joy, interdependent upon a mythical jolly fat man.
It’s a fascinating topic, no matter your take on the matter. Has knowledge increased man’s happiness? It’s obviously decreased his suffering medically speaking. Technology can be a form of isolation, but in and of itself (a very Kant thing to say) it is neither responsible for evil or good.
It, like knowledge, exists as the thing-in-itself, only defined by one’s world view and desire to postulate a proof.
Hmm…perhaps I do recall more of Kant than I thought. : )
Jon
Jon,
You know I respect you, but why do you ask for my views? Will they change anything? I say over and over “don’t look to me for your faith or the lack thereof.”
I’m certain you’ll just recite some logical fallacy, or bait an erroneous response that you’ll give a great sounding answer to, or try to trip me up in some detail that shows I don’t know everything about a subject when I freely admit that from the start. That makes the entire debate nothing more than verbal slight of hand.
Let me demonstrate.
“typical Jewish” logical fallacy (ad hominem and guilt by association)
“to lay down or give up the questions just because you conclude we cannot know everything” logical fallacy. (straw man and possible false dilemma) factual error. (that was never claimed)
“he also believed that the summation of all life was to ‘love God and keep his commandments.’” possible factual error and possible logical falacy (he also said “there is nothing better for a man to eat and drink and enjoy the produce of his labor”)
“Nothing in God’s commandments spoke of researching disease, inventing flying machines, and so-on.” logical fallacy (non sequitur) the Bible is not the be all and end all of human instruction and makes no claims to that end.
“if they truly “kept his commandments” (the ones Solomon is referring to) they’d be too bogged-down in ritual to do research” factual error (the Israel of Solomon was quite advanced for its time; also God hates religion) and possible ad hominem to quoque.
“And what of the scripture above? Is it true?” “Hardly — and this blog is proof if that, if not all of history.” logical fallacy. (begging the question and non sequitur.) factual error. (based on Biblical interpretation of a Biblical claim, the fulfillment is future but the supposition of error is based in past history.)
“Kant was agnostic” true, but the intent of the statement makes this a logical fallacy. (appeal to either authority, shared belief, consequence of a belief, or all of the above)
Now, I ask: does ANY of what I’ve said add to or take away from anything? No. Not one bit. ALL of it was external. Meaningless. A waste of time. Chasing the wind. All this shows is exactly what I said my opinion was from the first – people get bogged down in the externals and completely lose sight of what really matters.