“Steve”
Hi there, I really like your site and find it very comforting to know there are others out there that have payed a price for being involved in this cult. I have been reading all the posts non-stop and find them all very sad. I can’t say I have suffered as much as some of the others but have definitely felt the impact of WCG. I was hoping that some others could comment on my story and see if they felt the same way as me or not, anyway here goes.
I was born into the cult and grew up in a small town. Now, in our family there wasn’t any real physical abuse— we did get spankings quite a bit but there were never any objects used (whips, belts etc.) But we did listen and do everything our parents said. I had an older brother and older sister, and a few years later I had a younger brother. Our dad was and still is an intelligent man and I still can’t see how he ever fell for all the WCG nonsense. My mom, well not so much she was basically just lead along like all the other women of the church. Now when ever we disobeyed our parents there was a talk as to why we had to do this followed by a spanking, so in later years you knew a spanking was following any kind of disagreement or questioning, so I sort of just agreed. Plus, when I was that age (about 4 or 5) I wasn’t intelligent enough to argue with anyone. Now as all of you know my parents were poor; the tithing, not eating pork, not working on Saturday, wife’s taking care of the kids made it very hard for my parents to get by. We didn’t always have the nicest cloths or eat the best food but we did make it by.
Now one thing about the small town (and country for that matter) where I lived is that hockey is a very big thing, and somehow my parents came up with the money for us to play. Me, my older brother, and younger brother all loved it. We used to play all the time in our basement and my dad would play as well. Some years we even made an outdoor rink in the backyard. Since it was very common for everyone to start playing hockey at about age 3 or 4 we were lucky enough to start as well. When I started grade one as many others in WCG I was very embarrassed when I had to say why I couldn’t sing Christmas carols, draw a picture of Christmas etc. etc. so I always felt odd like I was just different, and not in a good way. I just felt I was weird on the inside (other posts state this and I know exactly how you felt.) Now at such a young age being so different is not a good thing, and like most others I didn’t have many friends in school… except in hockey. We would have practice twice a week and games on the weekend (when you are young all games are on Saturday mornings.) So I think I played hockey on a team for at least 2 years before playing a single game against another team. Now since me and my brothers loved to play we would always be practicing (of course, never on the sabbath) and as a result we became very good hockey players. We would have “drills” in the basement where we would stick handle wearing a blindfold to see who could go the longest. Now when I was in my second year of hockey I was clearly the best player on my team (as was my brother— he was older then me so we never played together.) but since I was never able to play any games with the team the coaches (and I don’t really blame them) didn’t really care if I was on the team or not. Now I was a good player on a hockey team so usually that makes you very popular (and I did have a few friends) but I was also the kid who never came to any games so a lot of the other kids hated me. I would hear stories of the games and one kid told me once “if you were there we would have won.”
As I got older (about 10) at this age is when you start to play for the “A” teams, and when things get a bit serious because at 14 – 16 scouts start to look at you. Now that I had gotten this reputation as the kid who can’t play any games I was put on the “B” team, and coaches didn’t want me. Now this was just ridiculous, and since I was a bit older now some games were on Sunday so I could play, I once scored 5 goals and our team won 5-4, it was not uncommon for me to get a hat trick in a game, sometimes 2 or 3 games in a row. But now since the only old hockey friends I had were on the A team and were wondering what I was doing on the B team and why I didn’t just play on Saturday, they kind of lost touch with me.
This is where things really seemed to get hard for me, it seemed like everything was just out of my grasp: this stupid WCG was limiting everything in my life and I couldn’t argue with my parents because I knew what any refusal meant. Also, I chose the road of lying to all my friends about why I couldn’t come out on Friday nights or go to any dances, etc. This just basically resulted in them stopping asking me to do anything. This is when I kind of turned to the church and really tried to make friends on the one day a week I saw them. Now this is where I was hoping some people could comment: but I just didn’t like the kids. (Maybe I just had problems— to this day I still can’t get rid of the awkward / scared feeling.) But any of these so called YOU activities (never mind YES) I hated those stupid lessons with a passion. I mean, I am no great athlete— I couldn’t play any other sport than hockey well enough to make the team— But our church would organize these activities of volleyball, basketball, floor hockey— and I mean everyone there was terrible. The worst was when some of these elders (or whoever) would think they could coach. It just seemed to me that the people who were having a hard time in life or were just never heard finally got their chance to coach, and they could force these young kids to listen to them. It seemed that way with every adult in the church (especially the ministers—) these idiots that finally got their chance to be the boss and just loved telling people what to do. I am sure everyone remembers the track meets and volleyball tournaments but there were a few years where there would be a big hockey tournament, now I think I was 12 or 13 at the time. But they had made a special kids’ tournament because you had to be 16 or 18 to play with the adults. “It was too rough for kids,” (even though there is no body contact) so my parents were very excited at a chance for us to play church hockey, especially with other church kids. Now when you are growing up playing hockey, the age difference of 12 to 16 is huge— I mean, kids are a lot bigger (in all non-church hockey,) there is body contact, etc. So I was put on some team where I didn’t know anyone, and I was so nervous. I mean, I was in a dressing room of kids as old as 16 they were talking about games they had played. And I got soooo scared— I really had no reason to be scared but even today I sometimes just get scared. I don’t know if it’s the, “When we get the call we will leave in the middle of the night,” or, “If god might not save me for eating pork.” I remember I was just a nervous wreck getting ready for the game, now when the games were actually played it was ridiculous I think I scored something like 12 goals in 3 games or whatever, but I mean those same kids could hardly play and some kids and parents were in awe of me. I have no idea why because by this time my skills had faded since in was not pushed to the higher level, and I was just a slightly better-than-average player. Now for some reason the next year I was allowed to play with the adults— I guess they made an exception to the age rule— and I ended up getting MVP for the tournament and my name is on some trophy somewhere. I was 14 at the time and the whole thing made me so frustrated. I was not allowed to ever play with the other kids on Saturday and had to play with these grown men who are fools. I could just never understand why that had to happen. Shortly after this the church went through the changes about pork and sabbath etc. So my parents stopped going and I was able to play hockey on Saturday, but by this time I was just an average player. I still loved playing and was able to get most of my friends back in my final year of school, so all in all I guess things weren’t all that bad but I just can’t help but be angry that my chance to realize my dream of playing professional hockey was basically stolen from me by the WCG. I am not saying I would have made the pros for sure, but at least I would have been given a chance to try and to fail on account of something I did, and not by some idiot who got off by giving a sermon. I realize this probably doesn’t sound all that bad but I just can’t get over this. I always think what my life would have been like without the WCG, and I am certain my parents loved watching me and my brothers play hockey, but threw it all away. And for what?
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December 12th, 2007 at 3:20 pm
Hello Steve, good to hear from you. I think a lot of us can relate to your story, if only because we all were on those same church sports teams; although, most of us probably didn’t have the skill that you were born with. And yes, Armstrong and his henchman hijacked the chance you may have had to realize your full hockey potential. They hijacked a lot from all of us, and I think he new. I don’t believe old Herb was just dillusional, I really think he new exactly what he was doing and how he was selling this big lie to make himself rich and powerful. That being said though, I will always say that they also “accidentally” gave us something they were’nt expecting: A sense of empowerment. Now that we’ve moved on from that period of our lives, I think most of us are stronger for it. We know that we can survive a lot of crap and come out ok. We also have the resolve to never let anyone hold that kind of power over us. Kind of like when the forest burns up, its grows back much more lush, green, and healthy. We’re better people than they, so we won.
You mentioned the “coaches” and ministers who seemed just too eager for the chance to boss someone around. The ministers definately did it and it was weird watching so many of the men in the congregation licking the pastors boots for a chance to get another rung up the ladder and do the same thing. Bruce Renehan gives a very good description of this phenomenon and the reasons behind it in chapter 16 of his book “Daughter of Babylon”. ( look up “world wide church of god daughter of babylon” on your internet search bar, you can read the whole book online. it’s not long)
I understand what you were saying about your friends. I had a couple real good buddies that were in the church, but of course none outside. I rarely even spoke to anyone at school, we were just so different. Sometimes we would travel to wyoming or western Nebraska for the weekend and attend services in different congregations. My mom would tell me to quit sitting by myself and go introduce myself to the other kids and make friends. Total strangers. I couldn’t do it, what do you say? They, having their own friends that they were comfortable with, of course wern’t really receptive to a stranger either. So we mutaully had nothing to do with each other and I would sit in a corner and read o book or something, feeling peoples eyes on me. 25 years later, I still do not do well with strangers. I’m polite, but don’t expect me to say much. Of course I’m comfortable with it now, I’m a loner and that probably isn’t going to change.
The church sports…Boy we were crap. ( I’m laughing as I write this!) I remember one track meet where my brother and I got first and second place respectively in the pole vault competition. The funny thing is, we were the only two competitors and furthmore, neither of us had ever attempted it before. They gave us each a medal though!
There’s something I’ve thought about recently…Basketball tournaments. My YOU team from Ft. Collins, Colo. always did very well when we played the teams from Wyoming, Nebraska, or north Texas. Not because we were good by any means, but we were mostly playing farm boys who really probably did’nt care much about it. When we would play against Denver though, it was a different story. They would wipe the floor with us. Now comes the weird part- When you played against them in Denver, you played a predominately colored team. If Denver travelled to a tournament in say Nebraska, you played against a white Denver team. Now, don’t get me wrong, I’m not making racial remarks here. What I’m getting at is this- WCG was a predominately white church. How many colored members did you ever see at the feast? Damn few. When I was growing up, there was nothing really overt, but you new that it was a “white” church and we were taught that interacial relationships were wrong.
So, Denver was a large congregation, in the rocky mountain region they were the largest, and had the most money, did the best, etc. What I’ve always wondered is when you played denver on their home turf, did they recruit non-church players from the local high schools? Kids that played basketball on the state level? You never saw them outside of Denver, and they were DAMN GOOD. Better than any WCG team. Let me stress again, I’m not making any racial remarks, just obsevations, I don’t want to offend anyone. Hopefully someone who was in that region in the late 70’s, early 80’s will have some thoughts.
Anyways Steve, thanks for sharing your story with us, and looking forward to hearing more from you. Stay strong.
December 12th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
Sorry to take up more space and for the slight redundancy of this comment…I just wanted to say once more, please don’t take my aforementioned query about a baketball team as a statement of any viewpoints or opinions as I realize it could be construed as stereotyping. That is not the intent. I realize I broached a potentially sensitive subject, so please bear with me. Thanks!
December 14th, 2007 at 1:09 pm
Hi Tim, thanks for commenting on my story. It’s very interesting what you said and I can really relate. I remember when we would drive to the feast (it would take us a few days of driving) and sometimes we would stop in at another church along the way, I did the exact same thing as you, sit by myself and feel people watching me. Also your comments about outside basketball players playing in YOU events don’t surprise me at. We never did play basketball in YOU but the funny thing is, when we did have the annual hockey tournament a friend of my brothers was allowed to play. He had never been to church and probably didn’t even know what church we were but was a very good hockey player, so I guess that was all that mattered. Ha-ha it sometimes makes me laugh when I remember how these “elders” used to be so competitive and they were the worst players I have ever seen. Also when you say that even now you don’t do so well with strangers, seems very much like myself. I am also polite but don’t say much either, I was just wondering if you thought this might come from when were young in school. I know that I used to try and not get noticed so I would not have to explain to everyone why I was different. I remember one time I think our hockey coach took us out for pizza and I had to tell everyone that I couldn’t have those toppings on the pizza because I couldn’t eat pork. That would not be a big deal today, but I think back then those things kind of just made me feel really out of place and also kind of ashamed. I think it has kind of led to the mentality of “if I don’t say anything, no one with think I am different”. Do you think that makes any sense?
December 15th, 2007 at 2:29 am
Hey steve, makes perfect sense to me what you said. The idea of “blend in, and don’t stand out” makes things easier. Totally different situations, but when I was in basic training I found it best to adopt the same strategy-don’t stand out and you won’t be singled out. Best strategy for difficult situations such as basic training, jail, etc. ( Funny how the church and jail have some intrinsic similarities).
You know, they taught us on the one hand how we were to “stand apart and be a light unto the world”, but they effected the opposite- we were forced as children to try to blend in and not to be noticed for fear of persecution.
I don’t know if I would be different, socially, if I hadn’t been raised in that environment. I think some is just naturally in me to be a loner, but, I think the church reinforced what was allready in me. Made me even more that way. Theres no way that you could live that way during your entire formulative years and not be permanentaly changed.
December 16th, 2007 at 7:43 am
Hi Tim
I was in the Denver church from 72 to 79, and was involved in the basketball program(remember Dwight Blekeberg?). I went on many road trips and home games. I can’t remember ONE black player. Maybe all that took place (as you say) after I left in 79.
Steve K
December 16th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Hi Steve K. Thanks for the response. I left right around my 17th birthday in ‘85. Started playing in the YOU at 13 or 14, so that would so that would put the incidents somewhere between ‘81-’85. That was twenty some years ago so my figuring may not be perfect, but I believe the incidents I recall occured in specifically ‘83 and ‘84.
The reason I asked if anyone from the late ’70s through the ’80s had any thoughts was because the late seventies were a part of that “general” time frame. Perhaps it only occured in ‘83 and ‘84. One tournament I remember in particular had the denver group divided into an “A” and “B” team. The “A” team had several colored players wich we lost to straight away. We then played the “B” team, all white, and won. I wish I could remember for sure which high school gym we played at, but I’m thinking it was Thornton High. As I recall, the Grand Junction team was also in attendance. I recall thinking even at that time that it was odd because when I was 4-5 years old we attended the denver church. (thats where I went through the ceremony when the young children are brought up on stage and “god” is asked to assign them an “angel” to look after them) This was before the Greeley, and Then Ft. Collins churches were started. So my mother still had friends in the Denver church and we would occasionally attend with them. Anyway, I was thinking it odd even then as I NEVER saw these fellows at the services we attended. But, I DID see them and PLAYED against them at several tournaments.
Thanks for the reply though. That’s what makes me believe they were fielding non-church players a few years later- The fact that you never saw these guys only a few years earlier.
The one thing I did enjoy about visiting the denver church were the nice comfy seats at the auditoreum, and it was close to the zoo and natural history museum. Occasionaly we would visit each on Saturday afternoon. Mom said it was ok occasionaly as we could use it as an opportunity to ponder “gods’ creation”.
December 18th, 2007 at 5:48 am
I’m sorry, Tim, I thought you were talking about the adult basketball team. I keep forgetting sometimes that I’m talking to another generation of people who wised up to the Armstrong antics. Actually, the Y.O.U. was just in it’s infancy back in the 70s and I never paid too much attention to it. It was not yet an “end in itself”. Yet another program in the cult that the “ministers” and the wannabes turned into a political arena at the expense of sacrificing the young people.
Steve K
December 18th, 2007 at 4:02 pm
No problem Steve, everything’s good! I jumped into my last comment and fired back a bit hastily with the bold face type. You know, I just remembered that’s how ol’ Herb emphasised his points in his co-worker letters, Damn! my first choice was italics, but I couldn’t figure out how to do it!
Anyway, That’s interesting you mention the adult basketball team. I remember the adult men playing a few games, but I’m thinking it was kind of phased out in our congregation by the time I got in YOU. Perhaps they no longer had time for it as their time was being taken up more in the new “arena” that you mentioned.
In your previous comment, you mentioned Dwight Blekeburg. I was quite young then, but the name does sound vaguely familiar, perhaps you could refresh my memory? Thanks, Tim
December 19th, 2007 at 5:55 am
Tim,
Dwight was by far the best outside shooter that I had ever seen(outside of pro and college). He was an all-stater. Other “church” teams would double-team him, sometimes triple-team him, and still couldn’t stop his magic touch. He hardly ever made the practices, and the rule was that if you didn’t make the practices, you didn’t get to play much. He was the exception!
Steve
December 25th, 2007 at 6:29 am
Steve, you revive my sense of alienation, frustration and disappointment in the high school experience with your story. My excellence was in academics and I got the highest test scores ever recorded in my state in some categories, but was not allowed to participate in the next qualifying examinations because they were on “the Sabbath.” My father would have been a control freak anyway, but the church gave him license to do so. What with the abuse at home and the mandates of the church (which was so unfriendly to children), social skills were not among my assets.
I was not allowed to attend any of the athletic events or dances at school or do anything that a normal teenager of my time would do, including listen to Elvis or watch “American Bandstand.” This was in the late 50’s. I was a very pretty girl but “weird.”
Your frustration is justified, but let’s put it in perspective. The greatest damage I see is that you and I and others like us were not allowed to excel in our areas of strength, something that is important as a child forms his identity. But if things had been different, you would not have likely been a national hockey player and I would not have been Albert Einstein.
Carol’s rule: it’s not what happens to you but what you do with it that counts. This doesn’t justify the wrongs, but it gives you something you can work with and, I don’t know about you, but I really don’t like feeling powerless. I had enough of that in the church.
I also want to add that having been a minister’s wife, having lived at HQ for some years, having known the personalities there intimately, including HWA, I can tell you unequivocally that there were pressures there you cannot even imagine and what you suffered in your local churches was only a taste of what those closer to the action were experiencing. I could tell you real horror stories. We were all true believers at one time or another and we all have to take responsibility for those decisions. Those of who left are much stronger than the others in my opinion, but continuing to carp about it is not strength for it really is a tiny drop in the bucket of human experience and living in the past is not beneficial to anyone. I can actually laugh about it now though the pain and shame of it is still there but far from dominating my life. I almost never think of the church and my experiences in it or what it cost me and only involve myself tangentially on this site so as to extend any encouragement I might to others who are still suffering in the throes of the paralysis such brainwashing can engender.
It was wrong. Lots of things are wrong. Lots of children who never were in this cult or any other have suffered far more than any of us. Doesn’t have to mean your life stops or that you are powerless to self-actualize and do something different with your life and in your own family. Kinda like a bad accident. We recover and life goes on. Put it in perspective and don’t let it take all your good energy (not that I’m saying that is what you are doing but it really isn’t worth any energy at all except that which it takes to purge it once and for all).
And to Tim I will say that you never knew Herbert Armstrong or any of his “henchman” personally, so I would refrain from making statements that based on your subjective interpretation but not on firsthand knowledge. I happen to know you are quite wrong and that the entire subject is much more complex and difficult than you can imagine. I don’t defend the man or what he did, but I don’t think any of us benefit by demonizing him, even if that is only in continuing to give him a power he never ought to have exercised. I accept my personal responsibility for my life, including the period of time in which I believed in the church and its teachings. Just one of life’s experiments, and could just as easily have been Scientology or some mainstream religion that is just as deceptive and inhibiting of personal growth.
December 29th, 2007 at 8:05 pm
Carol, I enjoyed reading your comments, as I always do. You seem to bring a sense of calm to these pages and for the most part I agree with your thoughts.
Let me qualify something though, My thoughts are a direct result of what I have seen and experienced and I try not to ever pass my thoughts and opinions as fact. I do try to preface opinions with something such as “I feel” or “I think…”. You are probably quite correct in that there were things that went on I could not conceive of. However, the man directly and indirectly effected a lot of pain on a lot of people. He wasn’t Caligula, or Pol Pot, or Stalin; but, neither was he Bhudda.
Perhaps you are partially right in that he shouldn’t be demonized as that does require the expenditure of substantial mental energy. However, I think the man brought it on himself and deservedly. Not trying to be provacative, we simply have differing opinions here. Once again, always enjoy reading your thoughts. Take care.
December 30th, 2007 at 7:03 am
Tim,
I don’t understand where Carol thinks your remarks were wrong. I thought you hit the nail right on the head, even though you did not know Herbie and his henchmen personally. The indelible track record will always be there on these charlatans, even if they had the power to burn all the books(and computers). I for one believe that the man SHOULD be demonized. He was a spiritual Hitler.
January 7th, 2008 at 2:01 pm
Carol thanks for your response to my story. Although I do agree with most of what you said there are a few things I don?t agree with; there is a kind of a theme in your response that says do not focus on what could have been and learn from what has happened. My main frustration is that I was raised into this cult and simply not allowed to take my shot at hockey / life. At least if I was, I would have learned some lessons when I failed ex. I didn?t not practice hard enough, I was not talented enough etc. When you are just forced to sit out I feel like I learned absolutely nothing. I guess when I have children I will not raise them in a cult but it seems that I paid a very high price to learn something as simple as that.
Steve
January 7th, 2008 at 10:30 pm
Hi Steve,
I don’t think I was as actively “blocked” from pursuing what I wanted to do, by the WCG and Sabbath-keeping, but I can relate to your and Tim’s comments about being a loner, and never talking to “outsiders”. I still have difficulty talking to strangers. I am not a social butterfly by a long shot. WCG-related? Maybe. Hard to tell.
I do have a link to share, though:
http://www.flyingfree.zoomshare.com/1.html
Scroll down till you get to the Introduction, and read the handwritten letter that is scanned in there. At least you can be grateful that, no matter how badly you hated being blocked from achieving what you wanted, you recognized that you were being blocked, at the time. The girl in the letter certainly did not recognize what her beliefs were doing to her, and she never got the chance to.
There weren’t a lot of “true believers” among the 2nd generation of WCG members born in the church, but I was one, and I can tell you that I regret not having been one of the rebellious YOU teens who hated everything to do with the church, and the things that made us weird.
Further to Carol’s remarks, I realize there were a lot of things happening “behind the scenes” at Headquarters that a lot of us didn’t get to see, but one of the things that did directly impact the members was the sheer chaos. The stuff that was going out from Headquarters to the ministers was so contradictory and unpredictable, individual congregations varied greatly, in how they taught and applied the beliefs.
Why do you think there were so many splits, after the changes? Each church was doing its own thing, in the first place, except for the tithes they sent in to HQ “faithfully’. And the Feast offerings. And the special offerings. But that’s a rant for another day.
February 8th, 2008 at 11:53 pm
I think I kind of understand what you mean about friends in WCG.
I had friends in The Church, but I always say we would never have been friends in the real world. Never. We had nothing in common… except The Church. Cheerleading. Volleyball. Softball. YOU dances. YOU Bible Study. Summer camp…
I love them, and still stay in touch with a few, but honestly all we have in common is a shared history.
April 21st, 2008 at 7:01 am
Hi, I am so grateful form this website. There is a former minister of the Worldwide Church of God who has begun a new movement calle dthe Church of God PKE. He has made some real big waves in the world of late claiming that the 3 and a hlf year countdown to the Apocalypse began three or four days ago (last thursday April 17th).
He cites Herbert W. as a ceritifed Apostle and a true man of god. I was really buying in to it all, and even sent them a tithe of my earnings for last week, $135.oo—money I should put in the bank or take my family out to dinner.
Finding your website has been amazing valuable. Any man than claims to be a prophet and presided over such pyshological devastation of children AND adults is not a true prophet but a force of evil in a modern world.
I could follow God if I ever really met him or heard from him directly, but I really have a hard time following liars cheats and thieves.
Herbie W. was all three and now there Ronald Weiland. I’m going down to the bank right now and stop payment on my check.
I can’t believe I almost became part of what will lead to much devastation.
I’m glad you all came out of something similar and survived. I’m glad I can save my kids, spouse and friends the trouble of the same sort.
Oh My G–, thank you so much.
April 22nd, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Michael,
There has been a lot of discussion on my personal blog (and my recently-opened personal forum) on Ronald Weinland. You might want to join the conversation there. Click here to visit the sub-board at the forum that deals specifically with Weinland.